When will Lebron pass Jordan?

[Shanemansj13]

Cowherd brings up a good point. Everyone is talking about MJ had tougher competition in the East and then over course Lebron had tougher competition in the West. MJ couldt beat the C’s and Pistons. If the Bulls are in the west in those years he would have made it to the Finals and lost. The reason why I think the ring argument is overblown, those teams torched MJ. It’s all about conference alignment. Lebron can do everything MJ could and more, some things better and the same with MJ. Rings matter but you have to look at everything. Lebron can always shut down the 1-5, especially in his younger days

 

[flyerhawk]

I never said anything about who had it tougher or easier.

Yes, the Warriors are an all time great team.

I didn't respond to your comments. You responded to mine.

 

[flyerhawk]

Cowherd brings up a good point. Everyone is talking about MJ had tougher competition in the East and then over course Lebron had tougher competition in the West. MJ couldt beat the C’s and Pistons. If the Bulls are in the west in those years he would have made it to the Finals and lost. The reason why I think the ring argument is overblown, those teams torched MJ. It’s all about conference alignment. Lebron can do everything MJ could and more, some things better and the same with MJ. Rings matter but you have to look at everything. Lebron can always shut down the 1-5, especially in his younger days

There are compelling arguments, IMO, for MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, or Lebron being the GOAT.

I think anyone outside of that list of players is a pretty huge reach. Maybe Oscar Robertson?

 

[Raw_Bee808]

There are compelling arguments, IMO, for MJ, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, or Lebron being the GOAT.

I think anyone outside of that list of players is a pretty huge reach. Maybe Oscar Robertson?

How can you rank players that you never saw play? This is where stat nerds get into trouble, IMO. Eye test matters, context matters (as I've proven) and how are you honestly going to compare guys from the 60's and 70's pre ABA merger era to modern era guys? It's obvious you weren't watching ball in the 80's or 90's from your posts in this thread so you should stick to players you actually saw.

How many Oscar Robertson games have you watched? How many Chamberlain games?

 

[flyerhawk]

How can you rank players that you never saw play? This is where stat nerds get into trouble, IMO. Eye test matters, context matters (as I've proven) and how are you honestly going to compare guys from the 60's and 70's pre ABA merger era to modern era guys? It's obvious you weren't watching ball in the 80's or 90's from your posts in this thread so you should stick to players you actually saw.

How many Oscar Robertson games have you watched? How many Chamberlain games?

One thing I can be certain of is that whenever a Jordan Fanboy starts arguing about him vs others you will invariably hear "Obviously you never watched him play".

Sadly for you, I did. But I don't buy into nostalgia reasoning anymore than recency bias. I know every Jordan Fanboy like you acts like you are a perfect memory of events that occurred 20 or 30 years ago but maybe, just maybe, your memory is as steel trap like as you would like to believe.

So Oscar and Wilt can't possibly be great because most people alive today didn't watch them play? Great argument.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

One thing I can be certain of is that whenever a Jordan Fanboy starts arguing about him vs others you will invariably hear "Obviously you never watched him play".

Sadly for you, I did. But I don't buy into nostalgia reasoning anymore than recency bias. I know every Jordan Fanboy like you acts like you are a perfect memory of events that occurred 20 or 30 years ago but maybe, just maybe, your memory is as steel trap like as you would like to believe.

So Oscar and Wilt can't possibly be great because most people alive today didn't watch them play? Great argument.

Here's some highlights of your greatest player ever the Big O


Look at those handles, LOL. He barely uses his left hand, this is one of the greatest ever? You can't be serious.
It's not fair to compare those guys to modern players or even consider them for greatest ever, the game was primitive back then.

 

[tlance]

They added Kukoc, Harper, and Kerr for the '94 season. Grant was the only loss. Cartwright was washed up and Paxson was slowing down too he had lost his starting job back in '93.

The Bulls were down 2-0 to the Knicks '94 and in danger of losing game 3 at home but Phil sent JoJo English into the game and he started a fight with Derek Harper. Both get ejected, Harper is suspened for 2 games which really changed the series. Also Kukoc hit a game winning shot in game 3 while Pippen pouted on the bench because the play wasn't called for him to shoot the last shot. If the Bulls lost that game they go down 3-0 and might even get swept. And you can't discount the Derek Harper suspension, those two events really changed that series.

Don't get me started on that Hubert Davis call.

LOL @ one of the best teams in the league, how many times do we see teams have great regular season records only to fizzle out in the playoffs. I already posted earlier they went hard in the regular season that year to prove they weren't just the "Jordanaires" they were motivated, whereas championship Bulls teams would coast through some of the season to make sure guys were rested and healthy for the playoffs.

I'm not sure the Bulls would've beaten Indiana in the Conference Finals, never mind beating Houston.

I don't think they were the best team. I never said that. But they were among them. That is the whole point.

Jordan gets all the credit for 6-0, when the fact is he had a really good supporting cast. A supporting cast good enough to win 7 playoff games without him.

If LeBron leaves next season and Cleveland keeps mostly the same roster, they might not win 30 games, even with the Nets pick.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I don't think they were the best team. I never said that. But they were among them. That is the whole point.

Jordan gets all the credit for 6-0, when the fact is he had a really good supporting cast. A supporting cast good enough to win 7 playoff games without him.

If LeBron leaves next season and Cleveland keeps mostly the same roster, they might not win 30 games, even with the Nets pick.

I'm sure Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love had nothing to do with the championships LeBron won

 

[Wamu]

I'm sure Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love had nothing to do with the championships LeBron won

Can you name a single title team where 1 player carried a team to a title? That's what I thought. No NBAer in the history of the league has won a title by himself. That's why it's a team game & that's why great players have a supporting cast.

 

[tlance]

I'm sure Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love had nothing to do with the championships LeBron won

They absolutely did.

But most of the teams LeBron has played in the Finals were better than his team. Jordan never played 1 opponent on the Bulls level during their entire run. Save arguably 1998 after Pippen hurt his back.

Jordan was the catalyst, but there was a lot more to it than just MJ. Phil Jackson played a huge role also.

 

[DorianRo]

Cowherd brings up a good point. Everyone is talking about MJ had tougher competition in the East and then over course Lebron had tougher competition in the West. MJ couldt beat the C’s and Pistons. If the Bulls are in the west in those years he would have made it to the Finals and lost. The reason why I think the ring argument is overblown, those teams torched MJ. It’s all about conference alignment. Lebron can do everything MJ could and more, some things better and the same with MJ. Rings matter but you have to look at everything. Lebron can always shut down the 1-5, especially in his younger days

Tougher competition en route to the finals is more difficult then just the finals because you have to play at least 2 great teams to get there (Which is what Jordan regularly did). Or 2 great teams and one really good team. There was no cakewalk to the finals and then the competition on the other side had to go through a tougher draw en route.

While people bring up Lebron's better finals competition, lets also not forget his teams for the past 8 years have been great as well stacked with multiple HOF'ers and All star AND he his teams should have had more in the tank for the finals than the opposing team who had to go through a tougher road to get to the finals

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

They absolutely did.

But most of the teams LeBron has played in the Finals were better than his team. Jordan never played 1 opponent on the Bulls level during their entire run. Save arguably 1998 after Pippen hurt his back.

Jordan was the catalyst, but there was a lot more to it than just MJ. Phil Jackson played a huge role also.

The point is, those championships Bulls teams wouldn't have made it past the second round without Jordan.

The heat with a healthy Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen, hypothetically could have very well made the Finals

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Can you name a single title team where 1 player carried a team to a title? That's what I thought. No NBAer in the history of the league has won a title by himself. That's why it's a team game & that's why great players have a supporting cast.

I never claimed the opposite

 

[tlance]

The point is, those championships Bulls teams wouldn't have made it past the second round without Jordan.

The heat with a healthy Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen, hypothetically could have very well made the Finals

Agreed that Bulls were not winning a ring without Jordan.

Don't agree that the Heat would have made the Finals. maybe once if they got lucky. They defintely would not have won a championship. And they would have struggled to beat the Pacers, Celtics and Cavs with LeBron. The reality is that the Heat without LeBron probably would have been very comparable to those Bulls without Jordan.

Top 5ish team with no real shot to win a title.

And, keep in mind no LeBron team in Cleveland had nearly as much supporting talent as those Miami teams.

Lastly, Ray Allen probably never goes to Miami if LeBron isn't there.

 

[cwalke3408]

When you have Bosh, Wade, and Allen, I don't want to hear excuses about losing to the Spurs and the Mavericks.

 

[cwalke3408]

Don't agree that the Heat would have made the Finals. maybe once if they got lucky. They defintely would not have won a championship. And they would have struggled to beat the Pacers, Celtics and Cavs with LeBron. The reality is that the Heat without LeBron probably would have been very comparable to those Bulls without Jordan.

That's the thing. They both had a supporting cast. It's just MJ went 6-0 with his while Lebron and the Heat went 2-3.

 

[Wamu]

That's the thing. They both had a supporting cast. It's just MJ went 6-0 with his while Lebron and the Heat went 2-3.

How did LeBron & the Heat make it to 5 Finals when he only played 4 years there?

 

[Wamu]

When you have Bosh, Wade, and Allen, I don't want to hear excuses about losing to the Spurs and the Mavericks.

Weren't the Spurs the favorite in that Finals match up? But the Heat were favored over the Mavs.

 

[cwalke3408]

Weren't the Spurs were the favorite in that Finals match up? But the Heat were favored over the Mavs.

Were they really favored tho?

 

[Wamu]

Were they really favored tho?

Shit you quoted me before I could fix my comment. Oh well. You mean the Spurs? I thought they were favored in 1 or both of those Finals match ups. Really don't remember though.