What did Cincy get from Oakland

[bengaldoug]

All I see is Flaming trying to figure out a way to downplay Dalton any chance he gets.

The season consists of 16 weeks, not the cherry pikcing you choose to do.

All good QB's get to play against sub standard defenses during a year, same as Dalton gets to.

Most good QB's have a pro-bowl WR or TE.

Most good QB's struggle against top 8 defenses. I don't think Dalton is unique in this case.

2nd year player.

He is on pace for 4000 yards and over 30 TD's. Back in the day I would have given up both my left and right nut for a QB for stats like that in Cincinnati during the days of Akili, Kitna, Klinger and many many more. Palmer threw for 4000 yards only twice, and only over 30 TD's once in his career. However, Palmer is the man, and Dalton isn't good enough for shit. I just don't understand the logic.

He stares statistical facts in the face and tries to explain them away in the schedule. I showed in an earlier post using Bengal opponents defensive stats that their offense is above average. They have positive figures in every area, even rushing ypc. There's absolutely no doubt that statistically Dalton is much improved in his second year. Now if only the defense could come along.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

He stares statistical facts in the face and tries to explain them away in the schedule. I showed in an earlier post using Bengal opponents defensive stats that their offense is above average. They have positive figures in every area, even rushing ypc. There's absolutely no doubt that statistically Dalton is much improved in his second year. Now if only the defense could come along.

That is going to be a tough hill to climb with Mauauluga in the middle, a hurt Howard, and Taylor Mays/Crocker having to play safety, while our defensive backs are OLD and slowing down.

DL could keep us in it.

Is it any coincidence that our DL has become more dominate in both the run game and more efficient in pass rush since Pat Sims has been reactivated?

Last year, I can't remmeber the exact numbers, but while he was healthy the first 8+ weeks we were top 5 in rush defense giving up only like 90 yards a game, and after Sims got hurt we averaged giving up like 140 yards a game in rushing.

 

[bengaldoug]

He does make a big difference in rushing defense, and makes the interior rotation much stronger. I was afraid they were going to release him.

 

[bengaldoug]

That is going to be a tough hill to climb with Mauauluga in the middle, a hurt Howard, and Taylor Mays/Crocker having to play safety, while our defensive backs are OLD and slowing down.
DL could keep us in it.

Is it any coincidence that our DL has become more dominate in both the run game and more efficient in pass rush since Pat Sims has been reactivated?

Last year, I can't remmeber the exact numbers, but while he was healthy the first 8+ weeks we were top 5 in rush defense giving up only like 90 yards a game, and after Sims got hurt we averaged giving up like 140 yards a game in rushing.

The corners seem to be playing better, notably Hall and Pacman. Could just be the recent competition, but Hall shut down Cruz against the Giants, no small task. The pass rush is definitely helping here, but I think Zim has made defensive adjustments playing to the strengths of the experienced (slow) corners. Also, Clements has played better at safety as the season has gone on. That statement will attract some attention, for sure.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

The corners seem to be playing better, notably Hall and Pacman. Could just be the recent competition, but Hall shut down Cruz against the Giants, no small task. The pass rush is definitely helping here, but I think Zim has made defensive adjustments playing to the strengths of the experienced (slow) corners. Also, Clements has played better at safety as the season has gone on. That statement will attract some attention, for sure.

That much is true. Hall is finally playing like he has recovered from hjis injury, and Pacman has always had the talent to be a good corner and young and fast. Since they have started emerging it has been much better in our secondary, but an injury to either one of them, and we are in trouble.

 

[kramer1]

Raise your hand if you're excited about Dre Kirkpatrick.

50 million savings? You fail at math hard. I'm not even gonna try and explain it to ya, either.

Dalton is a better QB than Carson. Should we throw him a parade?

Wake me up when the Bengals actually win something. I've seen this all before. If y'all want to be fooled again then that's your right. It's also my right to call ya all a bunch of fuckin idiots. You really should know better.

 

[cincygrad]

Raise your hand if you're excited about Dre Kirkpatrick.

50 million savings? You fail at math hard. I'm not even gonna try and explain it to ya, either.

Dalton is a better QB than Carson. Should we throw him a parade?

Wake me up when the Bengals actually win something. I've seen this all before. If y'all want to be fooled again then that's your right. It's also my right to call ya all a bunch of fuckin idiots. You really should know better.

Wait.... Who said we were winning anything? I thought this was about the Pamer trade.

 

[bengaldoug]

Raise your hand if you're excited about Dre Kirkpatrick.

50 million savings? You fail at math hard. I'm not even gonna try and explain it to ya, either.

Dalton is a better QB than Carson. Should we throw him a parade?

Wake me up when the Bengals actually win something. I've seen this all before. If y'all want to be fooled again then that's your right. It's also my right to call ya all a bunch of fuckin idiots. You really should know better.

Your bitterness oozes through. I'm almost as bitter as your are, but I hide it better. I choose to enjoy winning streaks whenever they occur, but won't be surprised if it's once again fools gold. If I'm going to root for the bastards, at least I'm going to try and enjoy their little wins.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Your bitterness oozes through. I'm almost as bitter as your are, but I hide it better. I choose to enjoy winning streaks whenever they occur, but won't be surprised if it's once again fools gold. If I'm going to root for the bastards, at least I'm going to try and enjoy their little wins.

That is all I am saying.

 

[bengaldoug]

That is all I am saying.

Nothing at all wrong with homering it up when they're winning, as long as you keep a realistic perspective.

 

[flamingrey]

PS -- Not sure why you dismiss his performance in the last three games. Yes the Raiders suck. No argument there. But the Chiefs have been solid on defense for most of the season. In fact they gave Peyton some issues yesterday. The Giants are one of the top 10 teams in the league and they limited Rodgers to 10 points last night.

Why? Because you guys are missing the most important fact. One that has been relevant since his first game in the league. And that fact is he's made a living off of beating up on bad teams. He's a very good decision maker so when he's playing against porous defenses that give him time and room (for his receivers) to work with, he's going to tear them apart. And that's exactly what he's doing now and what he will likely continue to do. The issue is it does not bode well when you have aspirations greater than just making the playoffs. This is the exact argument I made for Vick in the past, and people didn't listen then. It's the same way. I want to see improvement in his actual game, not only the numbers.

Interestingly, as far as "improvement" goes, I made a similar argument to Crash in I believe the game thread about giving the team props. It would be like saying Maualuga is improving or is better than last season or even a couple games ago because he didn't make any mistakes against the Raiders and even recovered a fumble. No. That doesn't mean he's improved or he doesn't still suck. It just means that the Raiders suck even more than him and didn't have the players to exploit his weaknesses.

So, when I assess Dalton I use similar logic. Why? Because I already know overall he's a good decision maker. Overall, when he's got a wide open player within 20 yards, he'll hit him. Overall, he sees the field very well. Generally, for a young QB, those usually are not the case, so there's more room for improvement and hence you have to look at other factors. For Dalton, those have never been an issue, his biggest issues are the ones we've discussed ad nauseum (accuracy long, accuracy in tighter coverage, decision making when there's less time and space, etc). And those issues aren't as easily discernible from stats.

Edit: and btw, the Raiders also held the Falcons to 23 points and that includes a pick 6, so essentially 16 points. They beat the Steelers. The Giants have had great defensive stands when they've wanted to. We've seen it in their 2 SB's where they play amazing defense in the playoffs. But we've also seen them give up 420+ yards FOUR times this season. They've given up 34 points against the Bucs, but held the 49ers to 3 points. They show up when they want to. And as just about everyone conceded on this board after the game, they just didn't show up against us. Point being, looking at a single game and saying oh these guys are good is misleading.

 

[flamingrey]

He stares statistical facts in the face and tries to explain them away in the schedule. I showed in an earlier post using Bengal opponents defensive stats that their offense is above average. They have positive figures in every area, even rushing ypc. There's absolutely no doubt that statistically Dalton is much improved in his second year. Now if only the defense could come along.

I'm not going to waste my time for now at least in doing so, but if you really want to make a convincing argument, compare his stats from last year and this year against teams with good defenses.

Dalton has gotten better against crappy defenses. But he hasn't gotten better against teams with good defenses. I'd love to see an argument against that...honestly.

 

[flamingrey]

How does Dalton compare to Smith? Why is this a comparison?

Alex Smith was a 1st overall draft pick that struggled terribly, lost his job many times and managed to stick with his team through a coaching change due to a lock-out shortened off-season. He put up nice numbers under one of the best young coaches in the league and was aided by a great running attack and one of the best defense in the league.

Dalton was a second round choice that was never in danger of losing his job. He plays for an average-at-best head coach with no running game and a questionable defense.

Aside from the fact that you hate both players, what is the common thread?

The common thread is stats don't tell the whole story as some are trying to make them out to. You have doug putting the words "statistical" and "facts" side by side. People are spewing out every random statistic without putting them in perspective.

Smith is a mediocre QB. Put the stats put him as a top 5 QB. Same thing I see with Dalton. While its different situations, the end result is very much the same. Smith has a great running game, great defense, and great TE to fall back on. That's why his stats are much much better than he really is (Colin is proving that as we speak). Flacco could fall in the same boat. Dalton is a different situation where he's great against bad defenses due to the reason I just mentioned in my other post, but sucks against good defenses. Luckily for him, he's better against bad defenses than he is bad against good defenses. Tends to stats that make him look better than he really is (though not to the extent of Smith).

That is the common theme.

Edit: Another common theme guys like Dalton, Flacco, Smith, and even Stafford share is they aren't the best players on their offenses. Stafford is not a 5000 yard QB, but having a player that's better than him allows him to inflate his stats, just as Rice does for Flacco, Gore/Davis/Harbaugh do for Smith, and Green/Gruden do for Dalton.

To Doug, I don't know where to find them, but if you can dig up "yac by team" stats, I'd love to see them.

 

[Servo]

Bottom line: Oakland gave up a mid first and likely a high second rd pick (which are the NFL equivalent of gold) for a bottom tier QB. Bengals win.

 

[bengaldoug]

Okay then, rey, just for you,I have done the research to put the stats in perspective.

in 2011 the Bengals played 8 games vs what could be called good defenses. By good defenses I mean defenses who gave up less ppg than their opponents averaged. Cleveland twice, Baltimore twice, Pittsburgh twice, Houston and San Francisco. These teams all gave up less than 20 ppg too. In those games Dalton's stats are as follows

136-249 54.6%
1606 yds, or 200.8 per game
6.5 YPA
7 TDs
7 int
72.1 rating
17.6 ppg average

Now using the same standard, the Bengals have so far played seven games vs good defenses (good meaning giving up less ppg than their opponents have averaged.

Cleveland twice, Denver, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Miami, and NYGiants. Dalton's stats are as follows.

164-257 63.8%
1759 yards, or 251 ypg
6.8 YPA
13 tds
9 int
86.0 rating
22.1 ppg

Once again, improvements this year across the board. If you're still not satisfied, well, then fuck you.

 

[cincygrad]

Rey would be more impressed if Dalton's last name were Palmer.

 

[DanBengalfan]

BAM!!!

 

[bengaldoug]

I would say that Dalton not being the best player on his offense is a good thing. It's a team game, after all, and Dalton is better than average. I would also say the only quarterbacks who are the best players on their team are maybe Rodgers, Brady, PManning, EManning, with maybe Luck, Griffin, and Newton headed that way in the future. Elite quarterbacks are not easy to come by.

 

[Be Weary of Query]

@Bengals QB Andy Dalton is 1 of 3 players in @nfl history with 20+ TD passes in each of 1st 2 seasons (P Manning, Marino)

https://twitter.com/NFLhistory

 

[flamingrey]

Cleveland is ranked 16th in defense this season when they were ranked 5th last season. I could give you last seasons ranks, but this season, they're middle of the pack (to be honest, personally I would include them in either season which would actually help Dalton). And if you were going to look at Cleveland this season at 16, Arizona was ranked 17 last season, you should consider them as well. Furthermore, last season Seattle was ranked 7th, yet they aren't included.

While I do respect the "defenses who gave up less ppg than their opponents averaged", I don't agree that that is the best measuring stick for a good defense. A lot of things go into ppg.

I would not consider the Giants for similar but different reasons for not including the Browns. As I discussed in an earlier post, the Giants are extremely inconsistent on defense. They at times have a good defense and at times a bad defense. I really do not consider them "good".

The funny thing is, even using your argument and the teams you used, you take the Giants out, and the stats become very similar, most importantly the TDs and INTs. Even putting them in that good defense category, they're more outlier than they are anything else.

You may not agree with the above, but I'm sure you'll agree with the defenses we faced last season are better than the defenses this season. Cleveland as already discussed. Went from 5th to 16th (and we got to play them without Haden). Pittsburgh is worse defensively than they were last season (just look up the game thread where numerous posters including grad stated they didn't recognize Pittsburgh defense). Baltimore is pretty much a wash since we played them when they were healthy. I would say Houston and Miami are a wash, both stout defenses. Between SF and NYG/Denver, it really isn't close.

Conclusion: I asked for this comparison, so with the above paragraph, I'm not saying disregard everything, but put it into perspective. You look at that one game against the Giants (even though I don't agree with including it at all) that skewed his stats for this season, and this season the defenses have been easier than those last season. Also, consider a better Green and a much improved offensive system (yac) and you can see where the stats might show Dalton's improved.

Where's the improvement in downfield accuracy? Where's the improvement in decision making against the good defenses (again, I dare you to look up game threads from that losing streak)? Where's the improved ability to hit receivers in tight window?