Trade ideas

[Mays-Fan]

I understand you had a ++ on there. But when you are dangling a guy like Price, the first thing you look at is the centerpiece of the package you are getting in return, and neither Crick nor Susac (or both) are nearly big enough to be the centerpiece to get him. You need a Pederson or a Braxton type of centerpiece to get that deal done.

Throw in Beede if needed. I saw him several times in the CWS, and frankly was not that impressed.

 

[Reefer]

Throw in Beede if needed. I saw him several times in the CWS, and frankly was not that impressed.

Beede is just 21 and the Giants knew he had command issues and I'm betting the took him because they think they can clean that up. His stuff is excellent and it is much tougher to to gain the secondary pitches (curve and change) that can both be put away pitches. His start against Arkansas was one of his worst of his college career. I would not be so quick to give up on him.

It would be awesome to get Price and Zobrist, but like others said Crick is not the high end centerpiece that other teams can offer. If what the BASG says is true about the Rays wanting Crick+Susac and 2 others for Zobrist then I'd pass. He would be a great fit, but that is an overpayment. Now if it were those 2 and Escobar/Blach, Arroyo and Panik for both, yea of course. I'd wouldn't trade either of Crick or Susac just for Zobrist, maybe Zobrist of 2011, but at 33 his power and speed are declining and he is exiting his prime.

I think Sabean swings a deal with Boston for Peavy for a marginal prospect if we are willing to take on his salary and hopes Scutaro/Panik/Adrianza/Uggla can fill the hole at 2B. I wouldn't mind adding Ben Revere if the price was minimal, only 26, .287 career hitter, good speed and could fill in at CF and leadoff. Would actually be a nice bench player going forward, not a starting caliber player though IMO.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Beede is just 21 and the Giants knew he had command issues and I'm betting the took him because they think they can clean that up. His stuff is excellent and it is much tougher to to gain the secondary pitches (curve and change) that can both be put away pitches. His start against Arkansas was one of his worst of his college career. I would not be so quick to give up on him.

It would be awesome to get Price and Zobrist, but like others said Crick is not the high end centerpiece that other teams can offer. If what the BASG says is true about the Rays wanting Crick+Susac and 2 others for Zobrist then I'd pass. He would be a great fit, but that is an overpayment. Now if it were those 2 and Escobar/Blach, Arroyo and Panik for both, yea of course. I'd wouldn't trade either of Crick or Susac just for Zobrist, maybe Zobrist of 2011, but at 33 his power and speed are declining and he is exiting his prime.

I think Sabean swings a deal with Boston for Peavy for a marginal prospect if we are willing to take on his salary and hopes Scutaro/Panik/Adrianza/Uggla can fill the hole at 2B. I wouldn't mind adding Ben Revere if the price was minimal, only 26, .287 career hitter, good speed and could fill in at CF and leadoff. Would actually be a nice bench player going forward, not a starting caliber player though IMO.

These are all discussable points, which you presented civilly - thank you. To address them in (hopefully) like fashion:

1) Beede - obviously our scouts see something in him I don't. I'm sure he's good - he was high on all the scouts' boards. But, in fairness, he is a gamble that is several years away from having major league impact. Good prospects often don't pan out (Foppert, Alderson, Jerome Williams, Ainsworth, et al). If he can be packaged for someone who can help us now, we should be willing to do that.

2) Our cost for Zobrist or Price - again, if it's two of our "top" prospects, plus, say Adrianza and throw in one of our minor league relievers, hardly any of them is sure-fire or irreplaceable. Prospects often don't pan out. The time-value of Zobrist now is much greater than any reasonable package it would cost us. Mass quantity does not equate to quality. And we need help now.

3) Scutaro/Panik/Adrianza/Uggla - this is mindful of our LF situation last year after Pagan went down and Blanco moved to CF. Mass quantity does not equate to quality. I'm not seeing a contender-quality 2B in that bunch for 2014.

4) Peavy - I was willing to overlook his 1-9, 4.72 season so far, saying it's just Fenway. But a closer look shows he is 1-6 on the road, 5.87 ERA. No thanks. I'd rather roll the dice with one of our farm guys.

5) Revere - has never hit above a .700 OPS and he has a -1.5 dWAR this year. Not interested.

 

[calsnowskier]

Beede (and all other 2014 draft picks) cannot be traded until after the 2015 draft.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Beede (and all other 2014 draft picks) cannot be traded until after the 2015 draft.

Thank you. I won't make that mistake again.

Nonetheless, I still stand by my main points. I'm all for a reasonable bundling of prospects to get a needed veteran now. But it has to be the right veteran.

I fear, though, that a previous poster (either you or sfgrtb) was right in that we may not have enough quality prospects to offer.

 

[calsnowskier]

Thank you. I won't make that mistake again.

Nonetheless, I still stand by my main points. I'm all for a reasonable bundling of prospects to get a needed veteran now. But it has to be the right veteran.

I fear, though, that a previous poster (either you or sfgrtb) was right in that we may not have enough quality prospects to offer.

Well, that is obvious. The worst of trolls can't argue against that. The discussion comes in what is reasonable and who is needed.

Is Crick and Susac reasobable for a needed Zobrist?

I say no. Others say yes. I am right. Others are wrong.

 

[msgkings322]

Well, that is obvious. The worst of trolls can't argue against that. The discussion comes in what is reasonable and who is needed.

Is Crick and Susac reasobable for a needed Zobrist?

I say no. Others say yes. I am right. Others are wrong.

LOL

The only opinion that counts as 'right' is Sabean's.

 

[SFGRTB]

I understand you had a ++ on there. But when you are dangling a guy like Price, the first thing you look at is the centerpiece of the package you are getting in return, and neither Crick nor Susac (or both) are nearly big enough to be the centerpiece to get him. You need a Pederson or a Braxton type of centerpiece to get that deal done.

Certainly. That's why I'm worried about LA nabbing him.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Well, that is obvious. The worst of trolls can't argue against that. The discussion comes in what is reasonable and who is needed.

Is Crick and Susac reasobable for a needed Zobrist?

I say no. Others say yes. I am right. Others are wrong.

Oh, yes, he could. The Worst of Trolls (TWOT!) would advocate for dumping our veterans now.

And TWOT has.

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh, yes, he could. The Worst of Trolls (TWOT!) would advocate for dumping our veterans now.

And TWOT has.

Wouldn't that be The Worst of All Trolls?







or "TWAT" for short...

 

[Mays-Fan]

Wouldn't that be The Worst of All Trolls?







or "TWAT" for short...

I was willing to settle for homonym, but TWAT is better.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Wouldn't that be The Worst of All Trolls?




or "TWAT" for short...

So now, when saying "don't be such a pussy", it would be ... literal ?

(CalSnow, don't throw anything at me ).

 

[calsnowskier]

So now, when saying "don't be such a pussy", it would be ... literal ?

(CalSnow, don't throw anything at me ).

I love this group.

 

[Reefer]

These are all discussable points, which you presented civilly - thank you. To address them in (hopefully) like fashion:

1) Beede - obviously our scouts see something in him I don't. I'm sure he's good - he was high on all the scouts' boards. But, in fairness, he is a gamble that is several years away from having major league impact. Good prospects often don't pan out (Foppert, Alderson, Jerome Williams, Ainsworth, et al). If he can be packaged for someone who can help us now, we should be willing to do that.

2) Our cost for Zobrist or Price - again, if it's two of our "top" prospects, plus, say Adrianza and throw in one of our minor league relievers, hardly any of them is sure-fire or irreplaceable. Prospects often don't pan out. The time-value of Zobrist now is much greater than any reasonable package it would cost us. Mass quantity does not equate to quality. And we need help now.

3) Scutaro/Panik/Adrianza/Uggla - this is mindful of our LF situation last year after Pagan went down and Blanco moved to CF. Mass quantity does not equate to quality. I'm not seeing a contender-quality 2B in that bunch for 2014.

4) Peavy - I was willing to overlook his 1-9, 4.72 season so far, saying it's just Fenway. But a closer look shows he is 1-6 on the road, 5.87 ERA. No thanks. I'd rather roll the dice with one of our farm guys.

5) Revere - has never hit above a .700 OPS and he has a -1.5 dWAR this year. Not interested.

Appreciate the response.

1- I hope you knew I wasn't trying to come down on you due to your assessment on Beede, just enjoy discussing things with this board as the MLB board does not have the sense of humor and baseball to knowledge the members of this board does. I've seen Beede pitch a number of times before the Giants drafted him and he has major league stuff and I hope the Giants drafted him because they think they can fix the command issues. It is a similar issue that Crick is having and he is still dealing with it years later. It would be easy to watch him in the CWS and be weary of his future, but I think he has the potential to settle in after Bum sooner rather than later. I agree, I'm all for trading prospects as many don't end up amounting to much, especially giants pitchers (Alderson, Ainsworth, Barnes, etc.) I feel like Beede was drafted also in part because it allows for the moving of Crick without it destroying the pitching prospect depth.

2-I'm willing to move pieces for Zobrist, but Crick and Susac is an overpayment. I think Susac is a bit underrated and with Hector's struggles, I would only move him for a player who is not on the decline. It's bad asset management to trade prospects because they may not pan out for MLB players when the value does not add up. Sabean said today in his interview, they won't make a bad deal, trading A prospects for B level MLB players. While I may disagree about us having A level prospects, I agree with his logic. What I don't like hearing is about money and payroll issues in 2015. The ownership needs to man up and spend money when it can improve.

3- I agree with the comparison. There is no answer on the roster for 2B. It looks like Uggla likely will be pressed into duty and we just all have to pray it works out. Utley would be great, but I just don't see the Giants giving up what will be needed to make a deal this year for any type of impact player.

4- Peavy has struggled this year and sure run support plays a factor, but he has just not been that good. I wasn't advocating we get him, just that I think that is the type of move I expect from Sabean in this market, plus the fact that Bochy knows him and Cain is out. Sabean said today its about assessing what type of upgrade it is with the staff. Are you just trading for someone else's Petit or is there an actual upgrade there. Knows that you won't be able to bring in a player to "replace" Cain.

5- Yes, Revere's defensive metrics are not great and provides no power, but speed, the ability to leadoff I would look to add ONLY if the price is minimal. Like I said, not a starting player, but pinch running and feeling in as a backup we can do worse, we have done worse and probably will continue to roster players who are worse.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Appreciate the response.

1- I hope you knew I wasn't trying to come down on you due to your assessment on Beede, just enjoy discussing things with this board as the MLB board does not have the sense of humor and baseball to knowledge the members of this board does. I've seen Beede pitch a number of times before the Giants drafted him and he has major league stuff and I hope the Giants drafted him because they think they can fix the command issues. It is a similar issue that Crick is having and he is still dealing with it years later. It would be easy to watch him in the CWS and be weary of his future, but I think he has the potential to settle in after Bum sooner rather than later. I agree, I'm all for trading prospects as many don't end up amounting to much, especially giants pitchers (Alderson, Ainsworth, Barnes, etc.) I feel like Beede was drafted also in part because it allows for the moving of Crick without it destroying the pitching prospect depth.

2-I'm willing to move pieces for Zobrist, but Crick and Susac is an overpayment. I think Susac is a bit underrated and with Hector's struggles, I would only move him for a player who is not on the decline. It's bad asset management to trade prospects because they may not pan out for MLB players when the value does not add up. Sabean said today in his interview, they won't make a bad deal, trading A prospects for B level MLB players. While I may disagree about us having A level prospects, I agree with his logic. What I don't like hearing is about money and payroll issues in 2015. The ownership needs to man up and spend money when it can improve.

3- I agree with the comparison. There is no answer on the roster for 2B. It looks like Uggla likely will be pressed into duty and we just all have to pray it works out. Utley would be great, but I just don't see the Giants giving up what will be needed to make a deal this year for any type of impact player.

4- Peavy has struggled this year and sure run support plays a factor, but he has just not been that good. I wasn't advocating we get him, just that I think that is the type of move I expect from Sabean in this market, plus the fact that Bochy knows him and Cain is out. Sabean said today its about assessing what type of upgrade it is with the staff. Are you just trading for someone else's Petit or is there an actual upgrade there. Knows that you won't be able to bring in a player to "replace" Cain.

5- Yes, Revere's defensive metrics are not great and provides no power, but speed, the ability to leadoff I would look to add ONLY if the price is minimal. Like I said, not a starting player, but pinch running and feeling in as a backup we can do worse, we have done worse and probably will continue to roster players who are worse.

Regarding the bolded - no, like I said, you've been very civil, and this has been a great discussion. Truly, thank you.

Regarding the points:

1) Beede - Cal set me straight (thank you, again). He is off the table re trades. And like I said, I'm sure he's good - he was high on all the pre-draft boards. He just had a not-so-good CWS, and that's where I happened to see him. His struggles there were hopefully of a temporary nature, and I certainly wish him all the best.

2) Zobrist - it's certainly a roll of the dice, and Sabean basically echoed what most of us are saying - we want the right veteran at the right price. But a solid upgrade now to our 2B and OF flexibility would go a long way toward competing for a WSC. Let's not forget that another WSC adds value to our very positive culture, not to mention our stream of revenues, which negates in part or even in whole the concept of "mortgaging our future" (giving up prospects for current value like Zobrist).

3) 2B - absent Zobrist, I don't see anyone else worth pursuing. I now applaud the Uggla experiment, which I may not have when it surfaced - I just don't put much hope in it. And I would not want us to pay much at all to get someone who wouldn't be a contender-quality player. Perhaps he is just engaged in gamesmanship, but Utley has basically said he wants to finish his career in Philly. He'd be nice for 2014, maybe 2015, but verrrry expensive in trade and on the payroll.

4) Peavy - I just don't have much faith that Peavy would be any kind of upgrade, and he's expensive to boot. Would rather roll the dice with Crick/Heston/Snodgrass/et al. Get well Matty!

5) Revere - agreed that he wouldn't help as a starter. But that's what we need with Pagan out. I just don't want us to spend more than a bag of balls to get someone who isn't a contender-quality player as a starter.

I think we're eye-to-eye on the points - I want to come across that way. Good stuff. Thanks.

 

[msgkings322]

5) Revere - agreed that he wouldn't help as a starter. But that's what we need with Pagan out. I just don't want us to spend more than a bag of balls to get someone who isn't a contender-quality player as a starter.

If what Sabean said is true Pagan will be back in a week, right after the deadline. I could see them standing pat on that position for the reasons you gave, not much worth getting for any kind of reasonable price. Adding back a healthy (and presumably rested) Pagan is like a trade at the deadline.

And do we really need a starter? Again none of us know for sure but Cain's injury isn't projected to be season ending is it? And he's our 4th (5th?) starter...

I could see us frankly standing pat here, which seems weird but there it is.

 

[GiantsPackersChamps2011]

If what Sabean said is true Pagan will be back in a week, right after the deadline. I could see them standing pat on that position for the reasons you gave, not much worth getting for any kind of reasonable price. Adding back a healthy (and presumably rested) Pagan is like a trade at the deadline.

And do we really need a starter? Again none of us know for sure but Cain's injury isn't projected to be season ending is it? And he's our 4th (5th?) starter...

I could see us frankly standing pat here, which seems weird but there it is.

I think we do need a starter. Sabean also said in that interview how they aren't "seeing the light at the end of the tunnel" with Cain's elbow and this is his fourth time on the DL in two seasons, body beginning to break down. For that reason (and because Petit is not a regular starter), yes we need a SP

 

[Mays-Fan]

If what Sabean said is true Pagan will be back in a week, right after the deadline. I could see them standing pat on that position for the reasons you gave, not much worth getting for any kind of reasonable price. Adding back a healthy (and presumably rested) Pagan is like a trade at the deadline.

And do we really need a starter? Again none of us know for sure but Cain's injury isn't projected to be season ending is it? And he's our 4th (5th?) starter...

I could see us frankly standing pat here, which seems weird but there it is.

Yep. If Pagan can play, even 2 weeks from now, we should stand pat there. I also think that unless Cain is done for the year, we can wait there, too. The priority IMO is 2B. Here's some other names not brought up much, but consider the source:

5 Trades That Could Take the San Francisco Giants to the Next Level | Bleacher Report

1. David Price
2. Daniel Murphy, 2B, NYM (I could get behind that)
3. Leonys Martin, CF, TX (intriguing if Pagan does not return, has a 1.7 dWAR each of the last two years)
4. Emilio Bonafacio, 2B-CF, CHC (lifetime 78 OPS+, bleah)
5. Ben Revere

 

[Mays-Fan]

I could see us frankly standing pat here, which seems weird but there it is.

Agreed. Let's not forget that before this rash of injuries, we had the BRIB and a 10 game lead. All we need to do is get reasonably healthy and we will be just fine.

 

[MarcoPolo]

BRIB???