Top 32 tournament LF Bonds vs Williams

[calsnowskier]

I just noticed that Bonds had to go through 3 of the top lead-off hitters in the history of the game to get to these finals.

Brock, Raines, Henderson.

 

[DragonfromTO]

What pitchers got from roids was longevity, not super enhancement. Rocket didn't go from throwing 96 to 105. He got his velocity back to where it was. Look at his body, he wasn't jacked up. Bonds doubled his HR output. Williams could hit .400 and 50 bombs without the juice. Go back and make his last 5 seasons .450 with 100 bombs per year. You'll call that absurd, but it's exactly what Bonds did, doubling his prime power numbers late in his career. Any Apple's to Apple's goes Williams way

When did he do this? I see just one season over .400 and zero seasons over 50 HRs (and only one over 40)

 

[calsnowskier]

What pitchers got from roids was longevity, not super enhancement. Rocket didn't go from throwing 96 to 105. He got his velocity back to where it was. Look at his body, he wasn't jacked up. Bonds doubled his HR output. Williams could hit .400 and 50 bombs without the juice. Go back and make his last 5 seasons .450 with 100 bombs per year. You'll call that absurd, but it's exactly what Bonds did, doubling his prime power numbers late in his career. Any Apple's to Apple's goes Williams way

Williams' top 3 seasons BA - .406, .388, .369
Williams' top 3 HR seasons - 43, 38, 38

Bonds' top 3 seasons BA (pre-2000) - .336, .312, .311
Bonds' top 3 HR seasons (pre-2000) - 46, 42, 40

Bonds' top 3 seasons BA (post 2000) - .370, .362, .341
Bonds' top 3 HR seasons (post 2000) - 73, 49, 46

Bonds had ONE season that was excessively over his prior-shown capabilities, not 5. His BA also was not increased by .050 in the time period.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Williams' top 3 seasons BA - .406, .388, .369
Williams' top 3 HR seasons - 43, 38, 38

Bonds' top 3 seasons BA (pre-2000) - .336, .312, .311
Bonds' top 3 HR seasons (pre-2000) - 46, 42, 40

Bonds' top 3 seasons BA (post 2000) - .370, .362, .341
Bonds' top 3 HR seasons (post 2000) - 73, 49, 46

Bonds had ONE season that was excessively over his prior-shown capabilities, not 5. His BA also was not increased by .050 in the time period.

No player gets better with age. Take his 2000 numbers, decrease them by 3% a year instead of the crazy increases, and you will have something close to his "real" numbers

 

[calsnowskier]

No player gets better with age. Take his 2000 numbers, decrease them by 3% a year instead of the crazy increases, and you will have something close to his "real" numbers

He played in an era where everyone used.

And it was not against the rules of the game.

 

[UK Cowboy]

He played in an era where everyone used.

And it was not against the rules of the game.

Irrelevant

 

[calsnowskier]

Irrelevant

???

Completely relevant.

He played in a time where everyone was Superman, and he was still head and shoulders above everyone.

 

[Howie115]

???

Completely relevant.

He played in a time where everyone was Superman, and he was still head and shoulders above everyone.

No, not everyone. Someone like Jim Thome hit over 600 legitimate home runs, with never a hint of juicing. That's my problem with Bonds. I don't know what his legitimate numbers would be.

Yes, I do take into consideration that Williams faced few black or Hispanic pitchers in his day, and few relief specialists. But there were also only 16 teams for most of his career, so pitching wasn't as diluted, either. It's a near-wash.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No, not everyone. Someone like Jim Thome hit over 600 legitimate home runs, with never a hint of juicing. That's my problem with Bonds. I don't know what his legitimate numbers would be.

Yes, I do take into consideration that Williams faced few black or Hispanic pitchers in his day, and few relief specialists. But there were also only 16 teams for most of his career, so pitching wasn't as diluted, either. It's a near-wash.

Yes, and no... with only 8 teams per league you played so many games vs the same teams and so many games vs the same pitchers... Pitchers lose the advantage after the first meeting, after that pitchers have to adjust much more than hitters do... It is not a coincidence that the MLB BAs were higher in Williams day than it was in Bonds and not a coincidence that the AIR statistic shows that Williams played in a better hitting era...

 

[Clayton]

The problem with Bonds is those 4 years at the end where its like 'hey, I'm so blatantly cheating and its so blatantly better than anything else' that its really hard to ignore. He went from averaging 75-150 walks a year to 177-232. Its not 'hey everyone else was roiding and he was just better so it balances out' Its 'hey everyone is roiding but he is so obviously better on roids than anyone else' and I'm not sure how you take Bonds seriously in this discussion. You have to throw those last 4 Hulk smash years out and maybe give him 2000 just to be nice.

 

[UK Cowboy]

No, not everyone. Someone like Jim Thome hit over 600 legitimate home runs, with never a hint of juicing. That's my problem with Bonds. I don't know what his legitimate numbers would be.

Yes, I do take into consideration that Williams faced few black or Hispanic pitchers in his day, and few relief specialists. But there were also only 16 teams for most of his career, so pitching wasn't as diluted, either. It's a near-wash.

Exactly. If you contracted half the teams in the league today, you'd eliminate all the #4 and #5 starters, and half the #3's

 

[obxyankeefan]

The problem with Bonds is those 4 years at the end where its like 'hey, I'm so blatantly cheating and its so blatantly better than anything else' that its really hard to ignore. He went from averaging 75-150 walks a year to 177-232. Its not 'hey everyone else was roiding and he was just better so it balances out' Its 'hey everyone is roiding but he is so obviously better on roids than anyone else' and I'm not sure how you take Bonds seriously in this discussion. You have to throw those last 4 Hulk smash years out and maybe give him 2000 just to be nice.

That is the thing about comparing players from different eras. How much better than their competition were they? In the era that Bonds played in the vast majority of players were using some form of "juice". Bonds numbers were amongst the best in the game at that time before 2000 and when he started juicing his numbers just became that much better than the rest. As much as I hate sabermetrics I believe this is the place to use them instead of counting stats, because of the difference in eras.

 

[calsnowskier]

Again, this is why I like OPS+ over OPS in an era-comparing discussion that we are doing here. It compares his numbers to his competition. Bonds was, hands down the GREATEST player in the game during his time.

He was head and shoulders above everyone else in the early 90's, when HGH was RELATIVELY rare.

He was among the games best in the mid-late 90s when HGH began to run rampant in the game, and he was reportedly clean.

When he allegedly started to use (after the 1999 or 2000 season) he became the greatest player in the game again, once the playing surface was evened out.

 

[calsnowskier]

The problem with Bonds is those 4 years at the end where its like 'hey, I'm so blatantly cheating and its so blatantly better than anything else' that its really hard to ignore. He went from averaging 75-150 walks a year to 177-232. Its not 'hey everyone else was roiding and he was just better so it balances out' Its 'hey everyone is roiding but he is so obviously better on roids than anyone else' and I'm not sure how you take Bonds seriously in this discussion. You have to throw those last 4 Hulk smash years out and maybe give him 2000 just to be nice.

How does his alleged HGH use affect his walk totals?




By his bat becoming so dominant over everyone else who was also using that the opposing pitchers feared him. That's how.

 

[Clayton]

How does his alleged HGH use affect his walk totals?




By his bat becoming so dominant over everyone else who was also using that the opposing pitchers feared him. That's how.

Of course. Does the fear factor work in his favor or does it suggest that not as many people were doping as you'd think? I remember how much fear people had of him. Walking him was a given most of the time. If other guys were juicing then you'd think that they would challenge him and his walk totals wouldn't have skyrocketed

 

[Clayton]

That is the thing about comparing players from different eras. How much better than their competition were they? In the era that Bonds played in the vast majority of players were using some form of "juice". Bonds numbers were amongst the best in the game at that time before 2000 and when he started juicing his numbers just became that much better than the rest. As much as I hate sabermetrics I believe this is the place to use them instead of counting stats, because of the difference in eras.

Its not really an era, though. Its at the end of his career in which he becomes a different person. I understand that he should still be ranked highly but I'm uncomfortable calling him a top 2 player of all time because of his late career cheating.

 

[calsnowskier]

Of course. Does the fear factor work in his favor or does it suggest that not as many people were doping as you'd think? I remember how much fear people had of him. Walking him was a given most of the time. If other guys were juicing then you'd think that they would challenge him and his walk totals wouldn't have skyrocketed

They feared him because he was the hands-down GOAT.

He was issued an intention walk with the bases loaded.

 

[Clayton]

They feared him because he was the hands-down GOAT.

He was issued an intention walk with the bases loaded.

He was. And he was cheating.

 

[calsnowskier]

Its not really an era, though. Its at the end of his career in which he becomes a different person. I understand that he should still be ranked highly but I'm uncomfortable calling him a top 2 player of all time because of his late career cheating.

How did he cheat?

 

[Clayton]

How did he cheat?

If you can look at his career stats and get to 2001 with a straight face then I can't help you.