POLL Top 10 poll: #27 player ever

[msgkings322]

I see the argument, but there wasn’t an issue of Bonds and Mays splitting votes. Or Ruth and Gehrig. Bench and Yogi weren’t getting any attention at all until just the last couple rounds.

I think there's a LOT more to differentiate those pairs. Ruth is comparable to no one, he's #1 and no one is going to vote Gehrig over him. Bonds and Mays aren't paired like 'who is the best catcher ever' as there's really only 2 contenders for that.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Still a ton of Koufax over Kershaw votes which make no sense to me

It’s also weird that 2 players from the same franchise, and similar careers. But one player has such a larger legend value.

 

[msgkings322]

It’s also weird that 2 players from the same franchise, and similar careers. But one player has such a larger legend value.

Similar what now? Dude...Kershaw has almost literally twice as long a career, and better career numbers by a significant margin. Yes I know Koufax dominates in post season performance but not enough to make up for the rest.

 

[calsnowskier]

Similar what now? Dude...Kershaw has almost literally twice as long a career, and better career numbers by a significant margin. Yes I know Koufax dominates in post season performance but not enough to make up for the rest.

Yeah. That caused a record scratch reaction from me as well.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Similar what now? Dude...Kershaw has almost literally twice as long a career, and better career numbers by a significant margin. Yes I know Koufax dominates in post season performance but not enough to make up for the rest.

Similar does not mean equal. Also it was not the point of the post. Not sure why so defensive.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah. That caused a record scratch reaction from me as well.

Milk does that a lot lol

 

[msgkings322]

Similar does not mean equal. Also it was not the point of the post. Not sure why so defensive.

Similar also doesn’t mean Kershaw and Koufax’s careers. Defensive lol

 

[LHG]

WAR is very flawed as we have discussed. Post season leadership has to count, Yogi was a 10x WS winner, 18x all star, same OPS+ as Bench, higher OPS, one more MVP (we can play games with who 'shoulda' won that almost every year, although I do agree some years are worse than others).

I totally get Bench over Berra arguments though, to me it's a coin flip.

I will say that the fact that Berra has a significantly lower WAR than Bench, when they had very similar offensive numbers, is odd. I can only guess that Bench's defense was considered much better than Berra's.
So yeah, WAR is flawed. But regardless of what flawed stat you look at, their numbers just don't say they belong in the conversation for at least another 10 spots without giving huge leaps just because they are catchers. I still haven't heard a good reason why their offense compared to guys still on the board doesn't even tell half the story of their greatness.

 

[msgkings322]

I will say that the fact that Berra has a significantly lower WAR than Bench, when they had very similar offensive numbers, is odd. I can only guess that Bench's defense was considered much better than Berra's.
So yeah, WAR is flawed. But regardless of what flawed stat you look at, their numbers just don't say they belong in the conversation for at least another 10 spots without giving huge leaps just because they are catchers. I still haven't heard a good reason why their offense compared to guys still on the board doesn't even tell half the story of their greatness.

Here's what makes sense to me...

We have ways to compare players to each other over different eras with ERA+ and OPS+, right? How good were you that year compared to everyone around you that year? So when we compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds or whatever, we can connect over a distance, two different kinds of games/eras, who was better?

Catchers have an interesting twist...we know as fans of the sport that playing that position almost tautologically has to mean your offensive numbers will be subdued. But there's no Catcher BP (CBP+) stat that can adjust for POSITION and help us see who is better among the best at their positions. A guy like Bench clearly could have played outfield and had gaudier numbers, but him doing the smart thing and playing a position guaranteed to hurt his stats...this shouldn't count against him.\

So yeah, bonus points just for playing that position, raises them up on the list of the best. Also remember we're in the late 20s here, this is B+ level now, these catchers deserve to be in the mix IMO

 

[msgkings322]

Frank Robinson has entered the chat

 

[steveringo]

Top 100 Catchers of All-Time

Greatest catchers in baseball history, ranked from 1 to 100.

baseballegg.com

 

[LHG]

Here's what makes sense to me...

We have ways to compare players to each other over different eras with ERA+ and OPS+, right? How good were you that year compared to everyone around you that year? So when we compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds or whatever, we can connect over a distance, two different kinds of games/eras, who was better?

Catchers have an interesting twist...we know as fans of the sport that playing that position almost tautologically has to mean your offensive numbers will be subdued. But there's no Catcher BP (CBP+) stat that can adjust for POSITION and help us see who is better among the best at their positions. A guy like Bench clearly could have played outfield and had gaudier numbers, but him doing the smart thing and playing a position guaranteed to hurt his stats...this shouldn't count against him.\

So yeah, bonus points just for playing that position, raises them up on the list of the best. Also remember we're in the late 20s here, this is B+ level now, these catchers deserve to be in the mix IMO

I do understand that catchers' stats are going to be subdued. My point is that there are still guys on the board (Ott, Robinson, Rodriguez, Lajoie, etc) that have numbers way better than Bench and Berra that its hard for me to say that these guys should now be seriously considered. I will give bonus points for catching but the leap still seems to large for the bonus points to not be silly. I realize that I'm in the minority on this but I just don't understand why the large leap. As I've mentioned, I see Bench, at least, in top 50 but top 30 seems to far up.

And I don't see this as B+ territory yet. This seems more like A-. But that is just my perspective.

 

[LHG]

Top 100 Catchers of All-Time

Greatest catchers in baseball history, ranked from 1 to 100.

baseballegg.com

View attachment 392350

It is interesting to me that Gary Carter is getting no love but Bench, Berra and to a lesser extent Gibson are getting a lot of consideration. Even Fisk and Rodriguez have been in the mix more than Carter.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Top 100 Catchers of All-Time

Greatest catchers in baseball history, ranked from 1 to 100.

baseballegg.com

View attachment 392350

i saw this site a few months back... really when we started doing this, i wanted to see each position...

problem with this site is they base the rankings on their PLAYER SCORE... and they dont explain how they come up with this number...

this site also has Joe Morgan as the best 2B of all time... and Cal Ripken JR as the best SS of all time

 

[steveringo]

It is interesting to me that Gary Carter is getting no love but Bench, Berra and to a lesser extent Gibson are getting a lot of consideration. Even Fisk and Rodriguez have been in the mix more than Carter.

i saw this site a few months back... really when we started doing this, i wanted to see each position...

problem with this site is they base the rankings on their PLAYER SCORE... and they dont explain how they come up with this number...

this site also has Joe Morgan as the best 2B of all time... and Cal Ripken JR as the best SS of all time

I am always curious to see how other sites rank players... I was mostly curious why Yogi Berra was getting more love here than Johnny Bench. I found one site that ranked Berra #1 (they pointed to his MVP's, All-Star Games, World Series Rings, and even catching a perfect game! - all which have little to do with actual statistics)...

On the flip side, I found that chart I posted - which inexplicably ranks him very low....

 

[LHG]

I am always curious to see how other sites rank players... I was mostly curious why Yogi Berra was getting more love here than Johnny Bench. I found one site that ranked Berra #1 (they pointed to his MVP's, All-Star Games, World Series Rings, and even catching a perfect game! - all which have little to do with actual statistics)...

On the flip side, I found that chart I posted - which inexplicably ranks him very low....

I looked at the 3 MVPs that Berra won. In none of those 3 seasons was he even the top 5 hitter in MLB. It was fascinating to me why he got so much love (Ted Williams was the best hitter in 2 of those 3 seasons and was well down the MVP votes).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am always curious to see how other sites rank players... I was mostly curious why Yogi Berra was getting more love here than Johnny Bench. I found one site that ranked Berra #1 (they pointed to his MVP's, All-Star Games, World Series Rings, and even catching a perfect game! - all which have little to do with actual statistics)...

On the flip side, I found that chart I posted - which inexplicably ranks him very low....

i am more curious on the why a player is ranked higher... if you can make a case, i wanna hear it... this site annoys me, because they make a case, but dont explain how they made it...

i can randomly give Urban Shocker a player value of 500 and say he is the best player of all time due to the MILK FORMULA....

 

[LHG]

i am more curious on the why a player is ranked higher... if you can make a case, i wanna hear it... this site annoys me, because they make a case, but dont explain how they made it...

i can randomly give Urban Shocker a player value of 500 and say he is the best player of all time due to the MILK FORMULA....

I never even heard of Urban Shocker until we started doing this exercise and started trying to figure out where players should be ranked. That is a really cool baseball name.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I never even heard of Urban Shocker until we started doing this exercise and started trying to figure out where players should be ranked. That is a really cool baseball name.

one of the best... still think Heavy Johnson is the best...