POLL Top 10 poll: #23 player ever

[eaglesnut]

The bats are getting a bit thin.

Well we did skip three of the greatest early pitchers

 

[calsnowskier]

Well we did skip three of the greatest early pitchers

Grove/Cy,/Mathewson? They are at the top of consideration right now.

 

[eaglesnut]

And why hasn’t Sheffield gotten any mention? He has the Bonds/Ortis/Piazza stink, but he does NOT have the ARod/Cano/Palmeiro stink. And his numbers are ridiculous.

Show me these ridiculous numbers.

That's what this whole thing is about.

 

[Cedrique]

And why hasn’t Sheffield gotten any mention? He has the Bonds/Ortis/Piazza stink, but he does NOT have the ARod/Cano/Palmeiro stink. And his numbers are ridiculous.

I don't think his numbers are that great for the era he played in. Great for sure, but I got tons of guys ahead of him. He played a lot of games and put up some numbers but never really led the league in much and never had that eye popping WAR season. If he played more as an infielder I would consider him higher but he really just played 3 or 4 seasons there before becoming just another hard hitting outfielder. I would take guys like Killebrew, Carew, Rose ahead of him all day long and it's not even time for them yet.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The position is a total grind that just eats players’ bodies.

i actually wish catchers would get credited for pitching stats...

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't think his numbers are that great for the era he played in. Great for sure, but I got tons of guys ahead of him. He played a lot of games and put up some numbers but never really led the league in much and never had that eye popping WAR season. If he played more as an infielder I would consider him higher but he really just played 3 or 4 seasons there before becoming just another hard hitting outfielder. I would take guys like Killebrew, Carew, Rose ahead of him all day long and it's not even time for them yet.

Killebrew is a name I have missed. He belongs in the rotation. Thank you.

Carew played in a dead era, so maybe he deserves a boost, but I am not sure he is better than Sheff. I need to take another look at Rose to reevaluate him. I have always just kicked him down the road, but maybe we are getting close to him.

 

[calsnowskier]

i actually wish catchers would get credited for pitching stats...

They do, kinda, but it isn’t a perfect link. Maybe compared to other catchers on the same roster?

Tough to track.

 

[eaglesnut]

Grove/Cy,/Mathewson? They are at the top of consideration right now.

Yeah those three. Skipped so far for the 90s guys and the bats.

 

[eaglesnut]

The position is a total grind that just eats players’ bodies.

And they're playing less games than the other guys. Tough to get up high on these great lists without the cumulative season or career stats.

 

[msgkings322]

Yeah those three. Skipped so far for the 90s guys and the bats.

Bats count too. 90s guys as well. Only Grove is a 'snub' there, Cy Young played before baseball was fully formed.

 

[msgkings322]

Many of us really downvote Griffey, but home runs count, and so does defense. Frank Robinson was an average defender. Not to mention Griffey gets some legend points.

 

[steveringo]

i actually wish catchers would get credited for pitching stats...

Like, how many no-hitters did Jason Varitek catch?

 

[Clayton]

Many of us really downvote Griffey, but home runs count, and so does defense. Frank Robinson was an average defender. Not to mention Griffey gets some legend points.

So I wasn't around to see Robinson but I'm looking at his career fielding percentage and its .984 and the league average was .982. Griffey was .985 and the league average was .983. We're in splitting hairs territory imo. Frank Robinson only had 101 games at CF but he held up in that small sample size .992.

Meanwhile, Robinson beats Griffey by over 23 WAR and wins OPS+ by 154 to 136

 

[msgkings322]

So I wasn't around to see Robinson but I'm looking at his career fielding percentage and its .984 and the league average was .982. Griffey was .985 and the league average was .983. We're in splitting hairs territory imo. Frank Robinson only had 101 games at CF but he held up in that small sample size .992.

Meanwhile, Robinson beats Griffey by over 23 WAR

I voted Robinson just now and believe he's > Griffey but just pointing out that we may be overly dismissive of him. We both know fielding % is just one part of it. Not really a problem if Griffey makes the top 30 IMO. We have a couple other guys higher than they 'should' be based on intangibles.

 

[Clayton]

I voted Robinson just now and believe he's > Griffey but just pointing out that we may be overly dismissive of him. We both know fielding % is just one part of it. Not really a problem if Griffey makes the top 30 IMO. We have a couple other guys higher than they 'should' be based on intangibles.

I do have Griffey around 30. I do wonder if I'm underrating him. He is the one player that maybe you should just throw era-relative stats out the window and if you do then I think he is probably closer to 25 for me.

 

[calsnowskier]

I do have Griffey around 30. I do wonder if I'm underrating him. He is the one player that maybe you should just throw era-relative stats out the window and if you do then I think he is probably closer to 25 for me.

Why ignore his era? Because he was a fun guy? Because he was “clean”?

I don’t really understand why Griffey’s “legend” status is earned or should be counted as a bonus in this project.

 

[LHG]

WAR is unfair to catchers. They don’t have the longevity of other players, and their contributions are very unicornish.

more than just that... because then you look at WAR7, and catchers SHOULD be playing less than all other positions too per season...

How do you measure the unicorn nature of a catcher and say "wow, his bat was way worse than this guy who should be ranked here but his perceived leadership skills, numerous times he squatted and his ability to command the field as a defensive captain more than make up for that"?

 

[Clayton]

Because he was “clean”?

I think this is the pretty obvious bump he gets in a lot of rankings lists

 

[calsnowskier]

I think this is the pretty obvious bump he gets in a lot of rankings lists

And how do you know he was clean? Who was clean? Who was dirty?

 

[LHG]

I do have Griffey around 30. I do wonder if I'm underrating him. He is the one player that maybe you should just throw era-relative stats out the window and if you do then I think he is probably closer to 25 for me.

Why ignore his era? Because he was a fun guy? Because he was “clean”?

I don’t really understand why Griffey’s “legend” status is earned or should be counted as a bonus in this project.

Many of us really downvote Griffey, but home runs count, and so does defense. Frank Robinson was an average defender. Not to mention Griffey gets some legend points.

I am curious about the legend points. I mainly remember his "legend" being a fun loving, likeable player who was really good. There are no mythical qualities to that. Just what helps a player endear himself to the writers so its easier for them to not look at him critically and vote him in on the HOF ballot.