POLL Top 10 poll: #23 player ever

[msgkings322]

Why ignore his era? Because he was a fun guy? Because he was “clean”?

I don’t really understand why Griffey’s “legend” status is earned or should be counted as a bonus in this project.

Do you also not feel Henderson or DiMaggio deserve 'legend' boosts? Or is this specific to Griffey?

 

[msgkings322]

I am curious about the legend points. I mainly remember his "legend" being a fun loving, likeable player who was really good. There are no mythical qualities to that. Just what helps a player endear himself to the writers so its easier for them to not look at him critically and vote him in on the HOF ballot.

That plus being considered 'clean' in the roid era.

 

[calsnowskier]

How do you measure the unicorn nature of a catcher and say "wow, his bat was way worse than this guy who should be ranked here but his perceived leadership skills, numerous times he squatted and his ability to command the field as a defensive captain more than make up for that"?

Thats the discussion, isn’t it?

 

[calsnowskier]

Do you also not feel Henderson or DiMaggio deserve 'legend' boosts? Or is this specific to Griffey?

Rickey’s was based on his on-field contributions. So he doesn’t belong in that group.

But no, I don’t. Just like I don’t think Cobb’s negative legend should be considered here.

 

[msgkings322]

Rickey’s was based on his on-field contributions. So he doesn’t belong in that group.

But no, I don’t. Just like I don’t think Cobb’s negative legend should be considered here.

That's fair. Personally I think the 'legend' points are valid for some of these guys but that's what makes it interesting, the different perspectives

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am curious about the legend points. I mainly remember his "legend" being a fun loving, likeable player who was really good. There are no mythical qualities to that. Just what helps a player endear himself to the writers so its easier for them to not look at him critically and vote him in on the HOF ballot.

I will say, Griffey’s legend status is a weird one.
He never won anything and is not known to be a post season hero. But yet he is getting the boost of a hero.

I said this earlier. But I think lots of his legend is based on how actively he was anti-Yankee. While the Yankees were the team of the decade. He was the rally against. I just think it made him so likeable

He is also one of the only 2 baseball players to be given a video game. And Griffey had 4.

 

[calsnowskier]

I will say, Griffey’s legend status is a weird one.
He never won anything and is not known to be a post season hero. But yet he is getting the boost of a hero.

I said this earlier. But I think lots of his legend is based on how actively he was anti-Yankee. While the Yankees were the team of the decade. He was the rally against. I just think it made him so likeable

He is also one of the only 2 baseball players to be given a video game. And Griffey had 4.

To be honest, I don’t remember his big “anti-Yankee” stance at all. I suspect you, as a Yankee fan, are placing a lot of weight on something that non-Yankee-fans don’t weigh at all.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

To be honest, I don’t remember his big “anti-Yankee” stance at all. I suspect you, as a Yankee fan, are placing a lot of weight on something that non-Yankee-fans don’t weigh at all.

I don’t know, I am just trying to explain why he has such a legend status. Being the face of the anti- evil empire, was my narrative I was making. I really don’t know if that was a thing or not. But the narrative is the best reasoning I can see.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don’t know, I am just trying to explain why he has such a legend status. Being the face of the anti- evil empire, was my narrative I was making. I really don’t know if that was a thing or not. But the narrative is the best reasoning I can see.

Fair.

But know that outside of the Yankee universe, I don’t know that anyone associates him as “the face of the anti-evil empire”. At least, it isn’t something he is synonymous with. To me, he was a very young second gen player who was drafted by a small market team and played in the same OF with his pops who eventually went to play for his childhood team.

A very nice story (and actually not that dissimilar to Bonds). But that has nothing to do with how good or bad he was. I was/am a BIG Griffey fan. I have shared the anecdote of my dad absolutely loving him because of an interaction we had in Spring Training when he first came up. But that has nothing to do with how good or bad he was.

 

[eaglesnut]

And how do you know he was clean? Who was clean? Who was dirty?

If he wasn't clean it was only in Cincinnati trying to recover. As a Mariner he was one of the greats.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

	Best WAR in league	TOP 5 WAR in league	Best ERA in league	TOP 5 ERA IN LEAGUE	BEST WHIP IN LEAGUE	TOP 5 WHIP IN LEAGUE	# OF TIMES ERA+ WAS OVER 200	# OF TIMES WAR WAS 11 OR BETTER
Young	7​	8​	2​	10​	7​	10​	1​	3​
Mathewson	5​	5​	5​	3​	4​	6​	2​	1​
Grove	8​	5​	9​	3​	5​	4​	1​	1​
Alexander	6​	7​	4​	3​	5​	6​	1​	3​

 

[MilkSpiller22]

by the above numbers...


Most special seasons- Young and Alexander
Most Best seasons- Grove
Most "one of the best" seasons- young

 

[calsnowskier]

	Best WAR in league	TOP 5 WAR in league	Best ERA in league	TOP 5 ERA IN LEAGUE	BEST WHIP IN LEAGUE	TOP 5 WHIP IN LEAGUE	# OF TIMES ERA+ WAS OVER 200	# OF TIMES WAR WAS 11 OR BETTER
Young	7​	8​	2​	10​	7​	10​	1​	3​
Mathewson	5​	5​	5​	3​	4​	6​	2​	1​
Grove	8​	5​	9​	3​	5​	4​	1​	1​
Alexander	6​	7​	4​	3​	5​	6​	1​	3​

Young and Lefty.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Young and Lefty.

the one thing nice about comparing that era of pitchers, i didnt have to include SOs... because really who cares...

i

 

[eaglesnut]

https://www.mlb.com/news/christy-mathewson-3-shutouts-1905-world-series

 

[nynasty]

I'm going to nominate the Hebrew Hammer, Hank Greenberg

13 seasons of excellence, he never OPSed below .835. His career numbers would be even more remarkable if he didn't miss 3 years (31-34)in his prime serving in WW2. 2 MVPs, 2 more top 5 finishes. Let the league in HR twice before he left to fight in the war, returned and led the league again in his 2nd year back. Also led the league in RBI 4 times, including his staggering 184 ribbies in 1937

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm going to nominate the Hebrew Hammer, Hank Greenberg

13 seasons of excellence, he never OPSed below .835. His career numbers would be even more remarkable if he didn't miss 3 years (31-34)in his prime serving in WW2. 2 MVPs, 2 more top 5 finishes. Let the league in HR twice before he left to fight in the war, returned and led the league again in his 2nd year back. Also led the league in RBI 4 times, including his staggering 184 ribbies in 1937

He has been listed before, but I think he deserves more consistent discussion.

Good call.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He has been listed before, but I think he deserves more consistent discussion.

Good call.

hes a tough one to place... short career like Joe D... 2 WS with one pretty dominant one...

but he had more NON HOF seasons, did not play a premium defensive position, and he doesnt have the same LEGEND status...

i think he may be after the Griffey/trout tier...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Best WAR in league

top 5 WAR in league

Best HR in league

top 5 HR in league

Best BA in the league

top 5 BA in the league

Best BB in the league

top 5 BB in the league

Best SB in the league

top 5 in SB

OPS+ over 200

WAR over 10.5

elite in WS title

Ott

3​

10​

6​

10​

0​

0​

6​

10​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

Robinson

1​

6​

1​

10​

1​

5​

0​

5​

0​

0​

0​

0​

0​

Morgan

4​

2​

0​

1​

0​

2​

4​

11​

0​

10​

0​

1​

1​

this one was very interesting.... Robinson is seen to be the better HR hitter... but Ott lead the league significantly more than robinson did...

also, Ott is seen to be the better BA guy... but this shows that it was the era that significantly was skewed...



Seems to me of these three

Most Special seasons- Morgan
Most BEST seasons- Morgan
Most "one of the best"- Ott

kind of surprised how low Robinson measured in this analysis...

also of the three, Morgan was the only one who had an elite postseason series..

 

[calsnowskier]

hes a tough one to place... short career like Joe D... 2 WS with one pretty dominant one...

but he had more NON HOF seasons, did not play a premium defensive position, and he doesnt have the same LEGEND status...

i think he may be after the Griffey/trout tier...

Probably. But I think Trout is right around the corner here…