There is no fucking Doubt anymore

[DJ Fieri]

The Lakers have faced a brutal schedule to this point:


Houston, 9-1
Phoenix, 5-5
LA Clippers, 5-3
Golden State, 8-2
Phoenix, 5-5
Charlotte, 4-7
Memphis, 9-1
New Orleans, 5-3
San Antonio, 5-4
GS, 8-2

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Dense? LOL when you have to resort to insults.

I've seen some things people have said to you since I've been on here. Not very complimentary either.

Insults is what they do when they don't have a legitimate argument to your response and are losing the debate

 

[wildturkey]

You guys can make fun of starbigd all you want, but he's right here whether you want to admit it or not. It's a fool's errand to argue in favor Kobe shooting that much. 30+ shots is fucking ridiculous. The "who else is gonna shoot" argument is bullshit. If they miss, they miss but you have to try. It's the only way to build some kind of offense. It may not work, but you have the opportunity to be successful. But you know what is a guaranteed way to have a sloppy offense that won't be successful? Having Kobe shoot the same number of shots as the years he's lived on this planet. There is zero chance to be effective that way. If LA is serious about trying to win games, that cannot be tolerated.

 

[starbigd]

Like I said, you guys get dense on purpose, ESPECIALLY if it's anything critical of Kobe.

I never once said the Lakers losing is all his fault. I'm saying you can't shoot the ball as much as he does, and expect to win, OR expect teammates to play well. This game does not work that way.

MOST players are streak shooters. The fact they're all in the NBA is indicative they have talent, and a lot of it. They'll shoot better as they get better opportunities.

I watch Kobe shoot under double and at times, triple teams. I've seen him take shots from damn near halfcourt with more than 10 seconds on the shot clock. What I RARELY see him do is drive, draw the double team, and pass to the open man. He does every now and then, but it's not as often as he should. He's freezing his teammates out. Hell against Golden State he tried to win by himself.........I mean he REALLY tried to win by himself.

That's NEVER going to work......and every last one of you here knows that. If you don't.......you're nothing short of a moron. Sorry it has to be said.

Kobe is in a bad spot......he's not on a good team. But that doesn't mean that basketball is played any differently......ball movement will ALWAYS lead to easy baskets......the Spurs are a living testament to this for DECADES now. Having a black hole in one player is not conducive to winning and never will be.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Injuries aren't helping much either. Randle is gone for the year, they haven't had Young all season, although he should be back tomorrow, Kelly just went out for another 6 weeks and of course, Nash is out for the season. Perhaps we can let them get a couple of guys back before we say they're not trying to win.

The suggestion that the Lakers tank it is academic because being 1-9 is going to be one hell of a mountain to climb just to have some respectable numbers. They would have to win 8 straight just to be at 50% and that is not going to happen, so then what is the best they can do? One might ask - I think they would be lucky as hell to win 1 out of 3 win which case they would have 8 more wins in the next 24 games which would be 9-32 and that puts them half way into the season. They are going to be lucky to get 20 wins the entire season with the way they started.

The only thing they got left to do now is to start scouting and decide who they are going to draft with the top 5 pick in the draft because they are already finished this season. The good about this is that they can come back next year with

A healthy Kobe Bryant
Julius Randle - rookie
Ed Davis - a rookie with a year's experience
A top 5 pick in the next draft
Jordan Hill is a decent player to keep
Nick Young will be better
I would offer Boozer a reasonable salary and I think Jeremy Lin at a modest salary is a keeper
That's not a bad nucleus to attract an elite player or two because while the Lakers will be saddled with Kobe's retarded 24 million dollar contract - Nash will be gone and Hill comes in about 9 and possibly Lin and Boozer at 4-6 million each. Lakers has a shot at getting a player like Conley, Aldridge along with someone like Kevin Love

 

[starbigd]

The suggestion that the Lakers tank it is academic because being 1-9 is going to be one hell of a mountain to climb just to have some respectable numbers. They would have to win 8 straight just to be at 50% and that is not going to happen, so then what is the best they can do? One might ask - I think they would be lucky as hell to win 1 out of 3 win which case they would have 8 more wins in the next 24 games which would be 9-32 and that puts them half way into the season. They are going to be lucky to get 20 wins the entire season with the way they started.

The only thing they got left to do now is to start scouting and decide who they are going to draft with the top 5 pick in the draft because they are already finished this season. The good about this is that they can come back next year with

A healthy Kobe Bryant
Julius Randle - rookie
Ed Davis - a rookie with a year's experience
A top 5 pick in the next draft
Jordan Hill is a decent player to keep
Nick Young will be better
I would offer Boozer a reasonable salary and I think Jeremy Lin at a modest salary is a keeper
That's not a bad nucleus to attract an elite player or two because while the Lakers will be saddled with Kobe's retarded 24 million dollar contract - Nash will be gone and Hill comes in about 9 and possibly Lin and Boozer at 4-6 million each. Lakers has a shot at getting a player like Conley, Aldridge along with someone like Kevin Love

Depends on what level of player you're talking about. If it's a top end, high level guy, that's not going to work unless he knows he will be the man......because he's the future, not Kobe. If its a mid level support guy for Kobe, it's a short term "fix" that improves the roster.....but doesn't make them a contender.

Basically, Kobe is done being the main focal point of the team if you want to win a title. I"m not sure that's sunk in for him at this point, or even the fanbase. But no other superstar is going to LA if they can't run the show.......so there has to be an accounting for that. WHO in the league right now would Kobe defer to?

 

[trojanfan12]

The suggestion that the Lakers tank it is academic because being 1-9 is going to be one hell of a mountain to climb just to have some respectable numbers. They would have to win 8 straight just to be at 50% and that is not going to happen, so then what is the best they can do? One might ask - I think they would be lucky as hell to win 1 out of 3 win which case they would have 8 more wins in the next 24 games which would be 9-32 and that puts them half way into the season. They are going to be lucky to get 20 wins the entire season with the way they started.

The only thing they got left to do now is to start scouting and decide who they are going to draft with the top 5 pick in the draft because they are already finished this season. The good about this is that they can come back next year with

A healthy Kobe Bryant
Julius Randle - rookie
Ed Davis - a rookie with a year's experience
A top 5 pick in the next draft
Jordan Hill is a decent player to keep
Nick Young will be better
I would offer Boozer a reasonable salary and I think Jeremy Lin at a modest salary is a keeper
That's not a bad nucleus to attract an elite player or two because while the Lakers will be saddled with Kobe's retarded 24 million dollar contract - Nash will be gone and Hill comes in about 9 and possibly Lin and Boozer at 4-6 million each. Lakers has a shot at getting a player like Conley, Aldridge along with someone like Kevin Love

Agree with most of this and wasn't implying that the Lakers were going to somehow get this turned around. Hell, they could be bringing back Shaq in his prime and I doubt they could turn it around enough to make the playoffs after digging a 1-9 hole in the west.

I'm just saying that we don't really know what the Lakers have because along with new faces, they have had a lot of guys out with injuries, so it's kind of hard to know right now what this team has.

Agree about keeping Lin at a reasonable salary. Not sure about Boozer, I need to see more of/from him. Sometimes he looks like the "Utah Boozer" and sometimes he looks like the Boozer that Bulls fans hated.

 

[trojanfan12]

Depends on what level of player you're talking about. If it's a top end, high level guy, that's not going to work unless he knows he will be the man......because he's the future, not Kobe. If its a mid level support guy for Kobe, it's a short term "fix" that improves the roster.....but doesn't make them a contender.

Basically, Kobe is done being the main focal point of the team if you want to win a title. I"m not sure that's sunk in for him at this point, or even the fanbase. But no other superstar is going to LA if they can't run the show.......so there has to be an accounting for that. WHO in the league right now would Kobe defer to?

I'm not worried about their ability to attract a top level FA, even with Kobe. Any top level FA, who isn't smart enough to figure out that Kobe is at the end of his career and would only need to wait 1, maybe 2 seasons before the Lakers became "his team", probably isn't someone that I would want on the Lakers anyway.

As for Kobe and deferring, it's not really a matter of deferring as much as it is about "making room". Kobe wants to get that 6th ring before he retires if possible. So, if the Lakers brought in an FA or 2 that Kobe felt to help get that ring, I think he would definitely "make room" for them.

 

[trojanfan12]

You guys can make fun of starbigd all you want, but he's right here whether you want to admit it or not. It's a fool's errand to argue in favor Kobe shooting that much. 30+ shots is fucking ridiculous. The "who else is gonna shoot" argument is bullshit. If they miss, they miss but you have to try. It's the only way to build some kind of offense. It may not work, but you have the opportunity to be successful. But you know what is a guaranteed way to have a sloppy offense that won't be successful? Having Kobe shoot the same number of shots as the years he's lived on this planet. There is zero chance to be effective that way. If LA is serious about trying to win games, that cannot be tolerated.

Like I said, you guys get dense on purpose, ESPECIALLY if it's anything critical of Kobe.

I never once said the Lakers losing is all his fault. I'm saying you can't shoot the ball as much as he does, and expect to win, OR expect teammates to play well. This game does not work that way.

MOST players are streak shooters. The fact they're all in the NBA is indicative they have talent, and a lot of it. They'll shoot better as they get better opportunities.

I watch Kobe shoot under double and at times, triple teams. I've seen him take shots from damn near halfcourt with more than 10 seconds on the shot clock. What I RARELY see him do is drive, draw the double team, and pass to the open man. He does every now and then, but it's not as often as he should. He's freezing his teammates out. Hell against Golden State he tried to win by himself.........I mean he REALLY tried to win by himself.

That's NEVER going to work......and every last one of you here knows that. If you don't.......you're nothing short of a moron. Sorry it has to be said.

Kobe is in a bad spot......he's not on a good team. But that doesn't mean that basketball is played any differently......ball movement will ALWAYS lead to easy baskets......the Spurs are a living testament to this for DECADES now. Having a black hole in one player is not conducive to winning and never will be.

Have either of you watched a Lakers game this year? Read any of Kobe or Byron's comments? I'm thinking no. There are many times throughout every game that the Lakers have a tendency to pass the ball to Kobe and then stand and watch. He's not going to pass to you if you're just standing around watching. In it's own way, it's similar to what Lebron is going through in Cleveland. It's teammates that don't understand the importance of playing as a team.

In Cleveland, it's young guys trying to "get theirs" at the expense of the team concept and with the Lakers, it's about young guys who want to watch what Kobe is going to do. Both Kobe and Byron have been telling these guys all training camp and season long to stop watching Kobe. They've also both been telling Lin that he needs to be more aggressive on the offensive end. Heck, Kobe has come out and said that he doesn't want to be taking this many shots.

And starbigd, if anyone is being intentionally dense, it's you. Lakers fans aren't saying that Kobe taking this many shots is sustainable, a good idea or constitutes good basketball. We're just saying that he's not being given much choice given the current roster and how they are playing. Hopefully, as the Lakers get some the injured guys back and everyone has a chance to get on the same page, we will see more team play and fewer shots by Kobe. If not, at 36 years old, he will be spent by the all-star break and there will be no way he plays the 75+ games that Byron wants from him.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Have either of you watched a Lakers game this year? Read any of Kobe or Byron's comments? I'm thinking no. There are many times throughout every game that the Lakers have a tendency to pass the ball to Kobe and then stand and watch. He's not going to pass to you if you're just standing around watching. In it's own way, it's similar to what Lebron is going through in Cleveland. It's teammates that don't understand the importance of playing as a team.

In Cleveland, it's young guys trying to "get theirs" at the expense of the team concept and with the Lakers, it's about young guys who want to watch what Kobe is going to do. Both Kobe and Byron have been telling these guys all training camp and season long to stop watching Kobe. They've also both been telling Lin that he needs to be more aggressive on the offensive end. Heck, Kobe has come out and said that he doesn't want to be taking this many shots.

Exactly.

 

[starbigd]

I'm not worried about their ability to attract a top level FA, even with Kobe. Any top level FA, who isn't smart enough to figure out that Kobe is at the end of his career and would only need to wait 1, maybe 2 seasons before the Lakers became "his team", probably isn't someone that I would want on the Lakers anyway.

As for Kobe and deferring, it's not really a matter of deferring as much as it is about "making room". Kobe wants to get that 6th ring before he retires if possible. So, if the Lakers brought in an FA or 2 that Kobe felt to help get that ring, I think he would definitely "make room" for them.

You have more faith in him than I do. Any young superstar level player isn't waiting to be the "man", why would/should they when they can be the man almost anywhere else?

Kobe has to take a back seat.....there's no getting around that. UNLESS they sign a lower level player.....guys like Nick Young are quality players that can be had and know they aren't the star. There has to be some level of accomodation IF they can get that star player to sign.

A lot can happen between now and then. Kobe might not even be healthy by then, or may look for a trade....who knows?

I know eventually they'll figure it out......but I don't see any way that Kobe will see a 6th ring in a Lakers uniform, and I don't think he'll opt to play elsewhere.

 

[LAKERSUSCBAM]

Bottom line there are no other players on this D-level squad that have the cojones to even CONSIDER trying to show their scoring ability. Go up and down the lineup and maybe I'd target Boozer at best with a scant second in Xavier(when he's healthy). The rest will and have deferred to Kobe. Have been to all their home games and to see them watch and stand around goes back to how team played two years ago before his injuries. Pathetic I say. We saw a glimpse in a couple of games from Lin being aggressive, driving and kicking, even shooting 3's. It's faint at best. Don't get me started on Wesley and his defensive prowess or lack of it. He balled with Kobe most of the summer with Kobe urging/pushing him to become more aggressive on offense. I've nicknamed him Hekyll & Jekyll cause you just don't know who you're gonna see on any given night. Maybe Swaggy will infuse some energy but their D liabilities won't go away.


And as it has been said the injury woes just continue to eliminate any chances to see what this team might be about. 336 lost games due to injury last season and over 100 games already lost between Nash, Kelly, Xavier. I won't use it as an excuse but even the most clueless NBA fan would recognize that you just can't have any level of success when constantly plugging in 2nd/3rd rate players. This coupled with a new coach, system, and new players.


Watch the games to see how the offense flows or doesn't with a bunch of spectators unwilling to shoulder the load.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Bottom line there are no other players on this D-level squad that have the cojones to even CONSIDER trying to show their scoring ability. Go up and down the lineup and maybe I'd target Boozer at best with a scant second in Xavier(when he's healthy). The rest will and have deferred to Kobe. Have been to all their home games and to see them watch and stand around goes back to how team played two years ago before his injuries. Pathetic I say. We saw a glimpse in a couple of games from Lin being aggressive, driving and kicking, even shooting 3's. It's faint at best. Don't get me started on Wesley and his defensive prowess or lack of it. He balled with Kobe most of the summer with Kobe urging/pushing him to become more aggressive on offense. I've nicknamed him Hekyll & Jekyll cause you just don't know who you're gonna see on any given night. Maybe Swaggy will infuse some energy but their D liabilities won't go away.


And as it has been said the injury woes just continue to eliminate any chances to see what this team might be about. 336 lost games due to injury last season and over 100 games already lost between Nash, Kelly, Xavier. I won't use it as an excuse but even the most clueless NBA fan would recognize that you just can't have any level of success when constantly plugging in 2nd/3rd rate players. This coupled with a new coach, system, and new players.


Watch the games to see how the offense flows or doesn't with a bunch of spectators unwilling to shoulder the load.

I am thinking that the Lakers have set themselves up to get a top five lottery pick which is not a bad idea if they can pull it off. Davis - Randle - the top 5 pick - will be the nucleus of a young team and a coach that will take them a ways.

 

[LogicMan]

Guys don't get pissed but why not try to trade Kobe? Get him to understand it is better for the franchise to move on. I keep thinking there has to be some team that is close to the top that has maybe a decent Yute, some bad contracts , maybe even a pick. Lakers are going to need to get picks if they want to rebuild. It's going to take a lot more than Randle and this years pick.

 

[LogicMan]

Trade stoudameire, shumpert , Tim hard away jr for Kobe.

Pair Melo with Kobe.

I think numbers work.

Go all in in NY to win with this duo

 

[wildturkey]

Have either of you watched a Lakers game this year? Read any of Kobe or Byron's comments? I'm thinking no. There are many times throughout every game that the Lakers have a tendency to pass the ball to Kobe and then stand and watch. He's not going to pass to you if you're just standing around watching. In it's own way, it's similar to what Lebron is going through in Cleveland. It's teammates that don't understand the importance of playing as a team.

In Cleveland, it's young guys trying to "get theirs" at the expense of the team concept and with the Lakers, it's about young guys who want to watch what Kobe is going to do. Both Kobe and Byron have been telling these guys all training camp and season long to stop watching Kobe. They've also both been telling Lin that he needs to be more aggressive on the offensive end. Heck, Kobe has come out and said that he doesn't want to be taking this many shots.

And starbigd, if anyone is being intentionally dense, it's you. Lakers fans aren't saying that Kobe taking this many shots is sustainable, a good idea or constitutes good basketball. We're just saying that he's not being given much choice given the current roster and how they are playing. Hopefully, as the Lakers get some the injured guys back and everyone has a chance to get on the same page, we will see more team play and fewer shots by Kobe. If not, at 36 years old, he will be spent by the all-star break and there will be no way he plays the 75+ games that Byron wants from him.

Yes, I have. And for the most part, they've played like garbage. That standing around thing isn't an effort thing. It's a scheme thing. Because their offense has been overly simplistic with clogged spacing and lacks anything off the first option. Once the defense takes the first option way, the players literally have nowhere to go. 2 things happen at this point. 1) They reset and try to run another 1 option basic set or 2) If Kobe has been passed the ball at the end of the first option, he negates the reset and attempts to create his own shot, usually using small crossovers and upfakes towards the middle of the floor resulting in a 16 footer. Many times his jumper is contested off double teams, making it a very low percentage shot.

And that Warriors game? A complete joke. Much like his other 30+ shot game, Kobe went into full 1 on 5 mode. LA got down early, but not to the point of the game being out of reach. They missed a few shots early but instead of trusting his teammates and working to get out of it, he took everything upon himself to get the game back. He launched shot after shot after shot and the point margin just keep getting larger and larger. That's not being a leader or a star player, that's being stubborn. He's utilizing his talents in the worst possible way. That is absolutely on him 100%.

The times LA has actually played well is when they space out like an actual modern NBA offense. They can utilize Kobe in a post up situation this way and if he's actually in the right frame of mind team wise, he can use the attention he draws to pass to his teammates and get them involved either thru spot up shots when teams double him or timed off ball cuts. The result is a much more balanced effort.

So did I make that all up or deduce it from actually watching the games?

 

[trojanfan12]

You have more faith in him than I do. Any young superstar level player isn't waiting to be the "man", why would/should they when they can be the man almost anywhere else?

Kobe has to take a back seat.....there's no getting around that. UNLESS they sign a lower level player.....guys like Nick Young are quality players that can be had and know they aren't the star. There has to be some level of accomodation IF they can get that star player to sign.

A lot can happen between now and then. Kobe might not even be healthy by then, or may look for a trade....who knows?

I know eventually they'll figure it out......but I don't see any way that Kobe will see a 6th ring in a Lakers uniform, and I don't think he'll opt to play elsewhere.

I agree that Kobe is unlikely to a 6th ring as a Laker (unless he's a coach), I also agree that he will have to make some accommodations if they land a big name FA. As for whether or not a young superstar will wait to be the man, that depends on how smart they are. It's not like Kobe is signed to a long term deal. His contract has 1 more season.

 

[trojanfan12]

Guys don't get pissed but why not try to trade Kobe? Get him to understand it is better for the franchise to move on. I keep thinking there has to be some team that is close to the top that has maybe a decent Yute, some bad contracts , maybe even a pick. Lakers are going to need to get picks if they want to rebuild. It's going to take a lot more than Randle and this years pick.

Go back and read almost any Lakers related thread in here. The explanation on why Kobe is unlikely to be traded has been explained 1000 times. Not going to lay it all out again.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes, I have. And for the most part, they've played like garbage. That standing around thing isn't an effort thing. It's a scheme thing. Because their offense has been overly simplistic with clogged spacing and lacks anything off the first option. Once the defense takes the first option way, the players literally have nowhere to go. 2 things happen at this point. 1) They reset and try to run another 1 option basic set or 2) If Kobe has been passed the ball at the end of the first option, he negates the reset and attempts to create his own shot, usually using small crossovers and upfakes towards the middle of the floor resulting in a 16 footer. Many times his jumper is contested off double teams, making it a very low percentage shot.

And that Warriors game? A complete joke. Much like his other 30+ shot game, Kobe went into full 1 on 5 mode. LA got down early, but not to the point of the game being out of reach. They missed a few shots early but instead of trusting his teammates and working to get out of it, he took everything upon himself to get the game back. He launched shot after shot after shot and the point margin just keep getting larger and larger. That's not being a leader or a star player, that's being stubborn. He's utilizing his talents in the worst possible way. That is absolutely on him 100%.

The times LA has actually played well is when they space out like an actual modern NBA offense. They can utilize Kobe in a post up situation this way and if he's actually in the right frame of mind team wise, he can use the attention he draws to pass to his teammates and get them involved either thru spot up shots when teams double him or timed off ball cuts. The result is a much more balanced effort.

So did I make that all up or deduce it from actually watching the games?

Looks like you made it all up to me. It's not a scheme thing. The Lakers offensive scheme isn't to stand around and watch Kobe, but that's what's happening much of the time. Try watching a game, not just reading stats.

 

[LogicMan]

Well Trojan I guess that is that. I will try my best to stop suggesting a way to improve the situation