The final word on Jordan vs LeBron (and Kobe)

[msgkings322]

Anthony Bennett!

Shaq!

 

[Wamu]

Shaq!

Danny Ferry!

 

[trojanfan12]

And why is Russell never in the conversation? 11 rings don't matter? Is he ignored because when he played there were not stats for blocks and other stats that weren't recorded back then that hide his greatness?

He's ignored because he played in the stone age. He was a great player for his time, but his time was when there were like 8 teams in the league, it was mostly 6'4" white guys and he played on a Celtics team that had 4 other hall of famers on it.

Wilt, who's also not in the conversation, used to beat him up pretty badly head to head, but just didn't have the roster behind him that Russell did.

 

[trojanfan12]

Kareem and Bird were about skill and grace?

Only if you saw them play.

 

[trojanfan12]

Kobe is only the 4th or 5th best Laker of all time.

Agree. My all time Lakers list:

1.) Magic
2.) Kareem
3.) Logo
4.) Kobe
5.) Worthy
6.) Shaq

 

[flyerhawk]

Only if you saw them play.

I have to tell you, I am sick to death of people doing this bullshit appeal to authority as if everyone should have the exact same opinion as them about the past otherwise that must mean they never watched the players play.

The discussion is a comparison of Lebron's style of play to these past players. Explain how Larry Bird or Kareem was all skill and grace in contrast to Lebron.

Irving and Magic and MJ, I get the argument. They all had a certain grace to their game, particular Dr. J and MJ. I fail to see how Bird or Kareem qualify in that sense.

 

[trojanfan12]

I have to tell you, I am sick to death of people doing this bullshit appeal to authority as if everyone should have the exact same opinion as them about the past otherwise that must mean they never watched the players play.

I don't care what you're sick to death of. You make a statement like you did and it makes it look like you never saw them play.

And here's another clue, when you want to make a statement about a player...having seen them play helps with forming an opinion, much moreso than simply looking at stats.

Kareem was arguably the most graceful big to ever play the game. His skyhook was pure grace and he was an excellent passer as well. He was known for throughout his career for being a graceful player and having excellent footwork.

Bird was very similar with his shooting, passing, footwork and ability to handle the ball.

 

[flyerhawk]

I don't care what you're sick to death of. You make a statement like you did and it makes it look like you never saw them play.

And here's another clue, when you want to make a statement about a player...having seen them play helps with forming an opinion, much moreso than simply looking at stats.

Kareem was arguably the most graceful big to ever play the game. His skyhook was pure grace and he was an excellent passer as well. He was known for throughout his career for being a graceful player and having excellent footwork.

Bird was very similar with his shooting, passing, footwork and ability to handle the ball.

Yeah I know the argument. And that would make perfect sense if you were comparing them to Shaq.

It DOESN'T make sense when comparing them to Lebron James. If you are going to arguing that they had skill and grace, then there is simply no possible way to argue that James doesn't.

 

[Wamu]

They all had a certain grace to their game, particular Dr. J and MJ. I fail to see how Bird or Kareem qualify in that sense.

You don't think KAJ's Skyhook was graceful? Damn. And Bird's grace wasn't measured by his athletic ability. His grace was his all around game.

 

[flyerhawk]

You don't think KAJ's Skyhook was graceful? Damn. And Bird's grace wasn't measured by his athletic ability. His grace was his all around game.

I do think they both were graceful in their own way. I do not think that they were more graceful than Lebron and I think it is silly to suggest that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah I know the argument. And that would make perfect sense if you were comparing them to Shaq.

It DOESN'T make sense when comparing them to Lebron James. If you are going to arguing that they had skill and grace, then there is simply no possible way to argue that James doesn't.

It's an apples to oranges comparison, especially comparing Kareem to Lebron. They play completely different positions. Just because Kareem didn't handle the ball like Lebron does, doesn't mean he wasn't a graceful player.

Bird didn't have Lebron's athleticism and speed, but he was also very much about skill and grace. We're not talking Maurice Lucas or Rick Mahorn here. lol

I agree that Lebron plays with skill and grace, but he can also be a blunt instrument as well. He's an excellent ballhandler and passer, but when necessary, he can lower his shoulder and basically bully his way to the basket.

In fact, I'd say that his ability to essentially bull rush his way to the basket while still being able to play with skill and grace is a big part of what makes him such a great player. You can't just beat him up physically and you can't just finesse him either.

That is the thing that Bird and Kareem lacked when compared to Lebron. They could still play bully ball to some extent, but not nearly like Lebron.

 

[Wamu]

I do think they both were graceful in their own way. I do not think that they were more graceful than Lebron and I think it is silly to suggest that.

Who said that? Certainly not me. Although I do agree w/ you.

 

[flyerhawk]

It's an apples to oranges comparison, especially comparing Kareem to Lebron. They play completely different positions. Just because Kareem didn't handle the ball like Lebron does, doesn't mean he wasn't a graceful player.

I wasn't suggesting that Kareem was not graceful.

Bird didn't have Lebron's athleticism and speed, but he was also very much about skill and grace. We're not talking Maurice Lucas or Rick Mahorn here. lol

I also was not calling Bird ungraceful.

I agree that Lebron plays with skill and grace, but he can also be a blunt instrument as well. He's an excellent ballhandler and passer, but when necessary, he can lower his shoulder and basically bully his way to the basket.

Completely agree. Which is why he is one of the all-time greatest players in the history of the league. I don't think there has ever been a player like him, tbh.

In fact, I'd say that his ability to essentially bull rush his way to the basket while still being able to play with skill and grace is a big part of what makes him such a great player. You can't just beat him up physically and you can't just finesse him either.

That is the thing that Bird and Kareem lacked when compared to Lebron. They could still play bully ball to some extent, but not nearly like Lebron.

Completely agree. Bird and Kareem did things that sometimes were absolutely amazing, although I admit I really only saw Kareem during the latter part of his career during the Lakers winning years.

 

[flyerhawk]

Who said that? Certainly not me. Although I do agree w/ you.

Shopson said this...

In many ways, Lebron's strengths are much about being bigger/stronger and imposing his will. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Kareem, Erving, Bird, etc were more about skill and grace, not brute force.

That was what I was responding to.

 

[trojanfan12]

Completely agree. Which is why he is one of the all-time greatest players in the history of the league. I don't think there has ever been a player like him, tbh.

Yeah, I've been following the NBA since 1970 and I can't think of a player that combined the skill, grace and power that Lebron plays with.

I can think of guys that had grace and skill equal to or better than Lebron, but they didn't have the power that Lebron does.

There have also been guys that had the power Lebron does, but lacked the skill and grace.

He's a truly unique player.

Completely agree. Bird and Kareem did things that sometimes were absolutely amazing, although I admit I really only saw Kareem during the latter part of his career during the Lakers winning years.

In his prime, he was something to see.

As a Lakers fan...I hated that guy. Especially with him leading the Bucks team that ended the Lakers 33 game win streak. Of course, all was forgiven when he eventually joined the Lakers. Lol

 

[DorianRo]

Last night showed the ultimate difference between Lebron and Jordan and Kobe Lebron has an inflated resume due to feasting on scrub competition for years and he looks like hammered shit when he plays conpetiton on par to him


Jordan/Kobe had far greater competition and were 10 times the competitors leQueen ever was
Lebron is nothing but a weak competition bully
Lebron doesn't belong in the same sentence with those two guys

 

[gordontrue]

he looks like hammered shit when he plays conpetiton on par to him

2012, 2013, 2016

 

[ANGELAKERAMS]

He's not in the conversation because if you think LeBron is playing on "stacked" teams, Russell was playing on teams with like 6 HOFers on them. Plus everyone was like 6'4" back then.

And because there were so few teams, he played against stacked teams as well. It was like the Celtics has all the great players and everyone else had none.

There are way more teams now, so the talent gets spread around.

So, when I team gets two superstars and some good complimentary players, they can win championships ( like the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq )

When a team has 3 superstars and several complimentary players, you go to the finals 8 straight years because nobody can match that ( except when they run into a team that has 2-3 superstars as well like GS ).

Difference between GS and LeBron's teams, GS did it through the draft and only signed KD this past offseason. LeBron went out and built his own super team and then when that started falling apart, he came back to a Cleveland team that had 3 #1 overall picks on it ( 2 of which they traded to get another superstar to team with him and Kyrie ).

 

[tlance]

Last night showed the ultimate difference between Lebron and Jordan and Kobe Lebron has an inflated resume due to feasting on scrub competition for years and he looks like hammered shit when he plays conpetiton on par to him


Jordan/Kobe had far greater competition and were 10 times the competitors leQueen ever was
Lebron is nothing but a weak competition bully
Lebron doesn't belong in the same sentence with those two guys

Jordan did not compete against a team on the Bulls level from 1991 to 1998. The gap between the Bulls and their best competition in that span is comparable to the gap between GS and Cleveland. LeBron isn't playing a team his equal, he is playing one significantly more talented and better.

 

[msgkings322]

As a Lakers fan...I hated that guy. Especially with him leading the Bucks team that ended the Lakers 33 game win streak. Of course, all was forgiven when he eventually joined the Lakers. Lol

Team jumping cupcake!