The final word on Jordan vs LeBron (and Kobe)

[Shaqdaddy11]

I didn't say I would pick either. I said I don't get how anyone can objectively compare them.

The same way people have been comparing the Cavs/Warriors to Jordan's Bulls
The same way people have been comparing Kobe to Jordan to lebron

It happens all the time. That is what these boards are for.
Alternatively we could all sing lebrons praises till the sun comes down and then sing Kumbaya by the campfire.

 

[flyerhawk]

The same way people have been comparing the Cavs/Warriors to Jordan's Bulls
The same way people have been comparing Kobe to Jordan to lebron

I think most people are comparing their accomplishments. I don't see a lot of people arguing about which team would beat which.

It happens all the time. That is what these boards are for.
Alternatively we could all sing lebrons praises till the sun comes down and then sing Kumbaya by the campfire.

I know it happens all the time. And it is purely subjective.

No one is asking you to sing Lebron's praises.

 

[RobToxin]

The three lines from this article, (and I am paraphrasing)

1) humans tend to get better at things over time
2) The last sentence about MJ, LeBron and Kobe
3) the one on one comparison. "I have played one on one against players who are taller, faster, stronger and shoot better than me. It usually does not go well".

It literally baffles my mind when people try to say elite teams from the current era aren't as good as past eras. Just doesn't make sense. Not only are stars more concentrated on these teams than they were in the 90s, but humans get better at things over time. This is fact.

It is fair to say that you don't like the way the league is set up today. I get that. But the argument that the Warriors and Cavs could not compete with great teams from prior eras? Please.

This is true.

And this is the irony. If I'm still alive to see it.

20 years from now, there will be a new GOAT for a new generation....

and the LeBron fans of today will be just as stubborn to name this new superstar the GOAT as Jordan fans of yesterday are to crown LeBron the GOAT.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

No one is asking you to sing Lebron's praises.

Yet when someone has something negative to say about him, they're labeled dumb and criticized. I can show you some good examples but there are just too many to chose from.

 

[flyerhawk]

Yet when someone has something negative to say about him, they're labeled dumb and criticized. I can show you some good examples but there are just too many to chose from.

I haven't called you dumb.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Lebron never had to go through the Celtics dynasty or the Bad Boys period of end of story.

These Lebron "finals appearances" crack me up because the East he's been in hasn't had 1 team that could even sniff an NBA title.

And before you dismiss the Bad Boys and forget about how bad ass that era was.. Detroit whipped the '89 showtime Lakers in 4 games - the Bulls went 6 games in ECF against that Pistons squad. Magic was the MVP that year.

1990 the Piston beat the Blazers 4-1. Bulls took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Magic was again the MVP.



Lebrons East is nowhere in the ballpark of what Jordan faced in the East. Had Jordan got to the Finals in 89 and 90 with a weak East like Lebron has had -- it would have been 8 rings. Plus 2 years of baseball?

Did Jordan go through the Celtics dynasty or bad boy Pistons?

I remember him having to wait 7 years to get to a Finals, and finally overcoming an old shell of a version of the Bad Boy Pistons

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Did Jordan go through the Celtics dynasty or bad boy Pistons?

Yes. In 89 he lost the ECF 4-2 to the Pistons. In 1990 he lost 4-3

Those Bulls teams averaged over 50 wins a season and Jordan was scoring over 32ppg

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Yes. In 89 he lost the ECF 4-2 to the Pistons. In 1990 he lost 4-3

Those Bulls teams averaged over 50 wins a season and Jordan was scoring over 32ppg

Ok, so he lost to them, I was reading that as if "He went through them"

I remember Jordan having to wait till the Pistons were finished for him to start having success

 

[SJ76]

Did Jordan go through the Celtics dynasty or bad boy Pistons?

I remember him having to wait 7 years to get to a Finals, and finally overcoming an old shell of a version of the Bad Boy Pistons

Did he have to go through the Celtics and Pistons to win a ring or much less make a "Finals appearance"? Yes he did. Has Lebron had any teams like that to compete against in the East? No

The 89 Pistons spanked the showtime Lakers 4-0. The Bulls went 6 games in the ECF with the Bad Boys. 1990 Pistons beat the Blazers 4-1. Bulls went 7 in the ECF that year. The East was stout back then - much much more so than now. Imagine MJ in a weak East and how many titles he would have? How many "finals appearances"? Funny thing is Magic was the MVP in 89 & 90.

The Pistons were not a shell of anything, they were kings of the NBA & the East at that time and Jordan and Pippen just finally put the hammer down.

Lebron has nowhere near the competition in the East that MJ faced, especially coming into the league.

1991 Bulls beat Lakers
1992 Bulls beat Blazers



You could almost say that in 89 and 90 the NBA championship WAS the ECF.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Did he have to go through the Celtics and Pistons to win a ring or much less make a "Finals appearance"? Yes he did. Has Lebron had any teams like that to compete against in the East? No

The 89 Pistons spanked the showtime Lakers 4-0. The Bulls went 6 games in the ECF with the Bad Boys. 1990 Pistons beat the Blazers 4-1. Bulls went 7 in the ECF that year. The East was stout back then - much much more so than now. Imagine MJ in a weak East and how many titles he would have? Have many "finals appearances"? Funny thing is Magic was the MVP in 89 & 90.

The Pistons were not a shell of anything, they were kings of the NBA & the East at that time and Jordan and Pippen just finally put the hammer down.

Lebron has nowhere near the competition in the East that MJ faced, especially coming into the league.

1991 Bulls beat Lakers
1992 Bulls beat Blazers



You could almost say that in 89 and 90 the NBA championship WAS the ECF.

Thats not true, I watched a documentary on that team, and they knew their run was over around the time the Bulls took them out..........Its when Isiah and the Pistons walked off before the final buzzer without shaking hands with the Bulls

I totally agree the path Jordan had was much more difficult, my point is, he lost to all of them until they became kings of the hill


I loved basketball back than, those East battles with the Bulls and Knicks, and Reggie and the KNicks, phenomenal must watch TV......So i dont completely dis-agree with you.....But I think we tend to revise history and make some of those teams better than they were....The Knicks were a bad ass team, they would physically beat you into the ground, but they were far from a completely great team, Starks was their 2nd best scorer for much of the Jordan years, and entering a lot of those series, the questions with the Knicks were how they would score enough.....

 

[knowyourenemy]

I didn't read the article but scrolled down to the last sentence -- and I agree. Kobe is a great player but he never really belonged in the conversation.

 

[SJ76]

Thats not true, I watched a documentary on that team, and they knew their run was over around the time the Bulls took them out..........Its when Isiah and the Pistons walked off before the final buzzer without shaking hands with the Bulls

I totally agree the path Jordan had was much more difficult, my point is, he lost to all of them until they became kings of the hill


I loved basketball back than, those East battles with the Bulls and Knicks, and Reggie and the KNicks, phenomenal must watch TV......So i dont completely dis-agree with you.....But I think we tend to revise history and make some of those teams better than they were....The Knicks were a bad ass team, they would physically beat you into the ground, but they were far from a completely great team, Starks was their 2nd best scorer for much of the Jordan years, and entering a lot of those series, the questions with the Knicks were how they would score enough.....

The Knicks were not the Bad Boys nor the Celtics. But the Pistons were not garbage after winning back to back titles. They just were not as good as Jordan elevated to be. They set the bar for Jordan and the Bulls to keep getting better. The Pistons/Celtics created the monster Michael Jordan.

 

[larryjohn]

Yes. In 89 he lost the ECF 4-2 to the Pistons. In 1990 he lost 4-3
Those Bulls teams averaged over 50 wins a season and Jordan was scoring over 32ppg

When Jordan was losing the the Celtics & Pistons, he had the reputation of someone who scored a lot of points -- "but he wasn't like Bird/Magic -- he didn't make the players around him better." Instead of trying to make guys like Horace Grant & Cartwright better -- he would give them crap when they didn't finish and he didn't trust them when he passed. There are a few sources (includes Phil's book -- but that wasn't the only source) that say this was Phil J's biggest accomplishment when he started coaching the Bulls (along with the Triangle) -- was to make MJ understand that he couldn't win a championship by himself -- he had to really trust the other players.

 

[flyerhawk]

Did he have to go through the Celtics and Pistons to win a ring or much less make a "Finals appearance"? Yes he did. Has Lebron had any teams like that to compete against in the East? No

The 2007-2011 Boston Celtics won an average of 58 games a season plus a title.

Imagine MJ in a weak East and how many titles he would have? How many "finals appearances"? Funny thing is Magic was the MVP in 89 & 90.

You keep doing this. If you want to diminish Lebron going to 7 straight finals because of the weak east, fine. But you still need to beat the team coming out of the west. Were the 08-10 Lakers chumps as well? Or the Spurs?

The reality is that the east was stronger in the 80s(especially the 80s) and the 90s than the West which was usually a one team show for most of those years.

The Pistons were not a shell of anything, they were kings of the NBA & the East at that time and Jordan and Pippen just finally put the hammer down.

The team had a losing record within 2 years of their loss to the Bulls and never recovered.

You could almost say that in 89 and 90 the NBA championship WAS the ECF.

True. The Lakers were no longer running roughshod over a weak conference by that time and it was almost assumed that the East would win every year.

 

[flyerhawk]

The Knicks were not the Bad Boys nor the Celtics. But the Pistons were not garbage after winning back to back titles. They just were not as good as Jordan elevated to be. They set the bar for Jordan and the Bulls to keep getting better. The Pistons/Celtics created the monster Michael Jordan.

You are re-inventing history here.

The Celts were very very good in the early and mid-80s. By 1990 they were an decent team but particularly dangerous. From in 1988-2001 they never made it to the conference finals. They had 4 50 win seasons in that span. The Pistons were dominant for a short period of time in the late 80s. The won 50 games the year they lost to the Bulls, which was a mark that they would only achieve 1 more time in the 90s. They would not escape the first round of the playoffs until 2001.

You could reasonably say that the Bulls rise to dominance started in the 89-90 season when they lost to the Pistons. But the argument that they had to fight through the Pistons and Celtics and Lakers powerhouses isn't historically accurate.

The Bulls big challengers were the Pacers and Knicks Jazz and maybe the Magic.

 

[msgkings322]

I didn't read the article but scrolled down to the last sentence -- and I agree. Kobe is a great player but he never really belonged in the conversation.

He was basically a B+ level Jordan clone. Which makes him a top 10 player but not top 2

 

[SJ76]

The 2007-2011 Boston Celtics won an average of 58 games a season plus a title.



You keep doing this. If you want to diminish Lebron going to 7 straight finals because of the weak east, fine. But you still need to beat the team coming out of the west. Were the 08-10 Lakers chumps as well? Or the Spurs?

The reality is that the east was stronger in the 80s(especially the 80s) and the 90s than the West which was usually a one team show for most of those years.




The team had a losing record within 2 years of their loss to the Bulls and never recovered.



True. The Lakers were no longer running roughshod over a weak conference by that time and it was almost assumed that the East would win every year.

I keep giving you facts on top of you pointing to Lebron's "final appearances" like they are some kind of serious accomplishment. You keep bringing up the West. I'm talking about the East. If you want to bring up the West, that's easy Lebron is 3-4 in the Finals. The East? 80s/90s was way tougher and it's not even close.

So 2 years AFTER the Bulls loss in 91 the Pistons were a shell.

I feel like I'm talking to Rainman here going round and round.

 

[SJ76]

You are re-inventing history here.

The Celts were very very good in the early and mid-80s. By 1990 they were an decent team but particularly dangerous. From in 1988-2001 they never made it to the conference finals. They had 4 50 win seasons in that span. The Pistons were dominant for a short period of time in the late 80s. The won 50 games the year they lost to the Bulls, which was a mark that they would only achieve 1 more time in the 90s. They would not escape the first round of the playoffs until 2001.

You could reasonably say that the Bulls rise to dominance started in the 89-90 season when they lost to the Pistons. But the argument that they had to fight through the Pistons and Celtics and Lakers powerhouses isn't historically accurate.

The Bulls big challengers were the Pacers and Knicks Jazz and maybe the Magic.

Here we are again with you lost in translation. I never said the Bulls had to fight their way through the East. I simply have said 100 times that Jordan had tougher competition in the East and had teams in the East that were actaully capable of winning a championship -- WHICH IS WHY YOU DIDN'T SEE JORDAN IN 7-8 STRAIGHT "FINALS APPEARANCES".. Lebron has nothing like that and never has. I know that's hard for you to accept obviously, but maybe you should get back to work and stop trying to find a way where Lebron is better than MJ.

He is not. I think it's time to step back and watch the Finals. Maybe you should try to wait and make another MJ Lebron thread after the finals.



Lawd have mercy

 

[flyerhawk]

I keep giving you facts on top of you pointing to Lebron's "final appearances" like they are some kind of serious accomplishment. You keep bringing up the West. I'm talking about the East. If you want to bring up the West, that's easy Lebron is 3-4 in the Finals. The East? 80s/90s was way tougher and it's not even close.

I CONCEDED the point on his 7 appearances. I get it. I don't feel like arguing about that stat point.

So 2 years AFTER the Bulls loss in 91 the Pistons were a shell.

I feel like I'm talking to Rainman here going round and round.

You realize the Bulls didn't play the Pistons the year after because the Pistons lost in the first round, right?

 

[flyerhawk]

Here we are again with you lost in translation. I never said the Bulls had to fight their way through the East. I simply have said 100 times that Jordan had tougher competition in the East and had teams in the East that were actaully capable of winning a championship -- WHICH IS WHY YOU DIDN'T SEE JORDAN IN 7-8 STRAIGHT "FINALS APPEARANCES".. Lebron has nothing like that and never has. I know that's hard for you to accept obviously, but maybe you should get back to work and stop trying to find a way where Lebron is better than MJ.

He is not. I think it's time to step back and watch the Finals. Maybe you should try to wait and make another MJ Lebron thread after the finals.

Lawd have mercy

I see you are still focusing on the 7 straight appearances while ignoring all the details I provided to discount your claim that the Bulls had to go through the super tough Lakers and Celtics.

Once the finals start I will focus on the games. We can return to this thread afterwards. I expect the Warriors will win in 5 but we shall see.