OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[imac_21]

And you know instead of being a fucking douche bag when someone makes a mistake with grammar or misuses a word you could politely point it out and not be a complete holier than thou dickhead. This is the 2nd time I have seen you IMPLY that you are a better person and more intelligent than someone else simply because you use words and proper grammar better than someone else. You may be smarter than most people in here when it comes to grammar and use of certain words but that doesn't make you better than anyone else in here as a person.

The funny part is that he doesn't.

 

[TobyTyler]

Jarrod, I'm just curious, how does Phoenix compare to Toronto or Vancouver? How about Stockholm? London? Oslo? Tokyo? Bern?

If your argument is that looser regulations on gun ownership lower major crime rates I believe there are a variety of countries around the world that would be interested. Countries with strict gun laws might be able to completely eliminate their major crimes if they were to adopt US gun laws.

These facts that you present, the idea that gun laws make it more dangerous, have completely changed my perspective on living in Canada. Since we regulate gun ownership so tightly, apparently I'm in serious danger. This despite living in a country that in 2011 had 598 murders. In the country. In a year. The 5 year average from 07 to 11 was below 600 murders per year. In the entire country. The province in which I live had a whopping 87 murders in 2011. That's with 4.4 million people living in the province.

I guess I should ignore the evidence and assume that I'm in much danger living in a country with strict gun laws.

I just stumbled across an interesting article as I was searching about the connection between gun-related homicides and gun laws. In 2008 there were over 12,000 gun-related homicides in the USA. In the Japan there was 11. Not 11,000. Just 11. As in how many championships Phil Jackson has won. In 2006 there were 2 (again, just two). In 2007 there were 22 and it was a national scandal.

Curious as to why? Read the article, but basically it's all kinds of illegal to own a gun there. To the point that the Yakuza has pretty much stopped carrying them.

There's a fun little anecdote in that story about Japanese using gun ranges in Hawaii and Hawaiians marketing to them. The simple act of going to a gun range and shooting a gun in Japan would be breaking 3 laws, including simply the act of holding a hand gun (up to 10 years in prison).



A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

Why so few?

That is amazing compared to the level of violence in the U.S.. Do you think its strictly a result of gun control or is it jmore a different mentality of the people up there?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Ignore the absurd media racial influence nonsense and focus on the facts. The mainstream media has morphed into something scary. It will always be "he said, she said."

If someone told me I was going to die today and proceeded to crack the back of my head with fists against concrete, I'd probably start to fear for my life. If I couldn't get my head off the concrete and onto nearby grass, I'd be resorted to doing anything and everything possible to save my life. After I shot the guy, when the cop interrogates me and falsely tells me the whole thing was caught on video, I'd say "thank God" just like he did. Now if I made the whole thing up to save my own ass, and the police gave me that same piece of info, I probably wouldn't instantly respond with a "thank God." That's a big reason why he walked.

Now did he overreact and shoot too early? Maybe. That's what the media focus needs to be on.

And that's the major issue. I don't know many people who view this case rationally who believe Zimmerman should have been convicted of murder. Manslaughter is a different story. I have a problem with someone who is armed and angry following someone who hasn't done anything wrong - despite being told by a 911 operator he shouldn't do so, confronting them, and shooting and killing them. I don't think someone who initiates a confrontation and then kills the person they confronted should get the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, they should have to take the stand in order to rely on self-defense.

 

[imac_21]

I would guess different cultures. Americans like their guns. Since guns are banned how many other murders are there?

Canadian and American culture isn't that different, save gun laws. Pop culture between the two is very similar. It's tough to point to cultural differences.

As for actual murders in Japan, the first article I found that cited a number said there 1097 total murders in 2009. That's less than 10% what the US saw for gun related homicide.

The numbers in my post from Canada were total murders (598). That's not just the gun-related ones. That's the total number of murders.

 

[Dodub]

First off, according to evidence and jury, he didn't confront anyone, Martin did. Second the police never told him to stop, an operater did.

Of course he confronted him, he followed him and got out of his car and walked up to him. Martin was the one minding his own business and being followed the confrontation was forced by Zimmerman, there is no denying that.

Secondly it was a police operator, he called the police and they told him that they did not need him to follow Martin.

 

[Dodub]

And more dead innocent guys.

I agree. Also if EVERYONE had a gun, that would include the bad guys who had the bad intentions to begin with. I dunno why people who make those statements don't take this into consideration, the bad guys who have bad intentions will likely shoot you before you get to your gun.

 

[Dodub]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion; perhaps a comprehension issue on your part? You are confused, it was Martin who did the assaulting and not Zimmerman so it would be Martin who got the gun from me.

But your statement still doesn't make sense because Martin wasn't wandering around the neighborhood uninvited and he didn't set out to confront anyone, but instead was forced into a confrontation.

 

[NinerSickness]

I for one wish there were armed, law-abiding citizens who have enough money to spend on a gun with concealed weapons permits around me all the time. I would be MORE safe around them not less safe. Do you feel more or less likely to be shot, assaulted or otherwise harmed when a cop is around?

Since 2007 (as of last year) of the 51,084 people who have been granted concealed weapons permits, only 44 of them have been convicted of any kind of gun-crime. That's about 7 per year in the entire United States. They are not the problem. Not even close.

 

[imac_21]

That is amazing compared to the level of violence in the U.S.. Do you think its strictly a result of gun control or is it jmore a different mentality of the people up there?

I do think gun control has a lot to do with it. The biggest gun control issue we've had here in the last 10 years or so (the time frame I've been old enough to pay a little attention and understand) is a long gun registry in which the government wanted to pass legislation requiring all guns to be registered. Public reaction led to that not going through. Right now there is an extensive gun registry in Canada, I'm not all that familiar with the ins and outs because I don't own a gun and don't feel the need to own one.

The cry against the long gun registry was mostly from hunters who would then have to register all their hunting rifles.

I'm sure there is more to it than simply the gun control laws, but it can't be a coincidence that the countries around the world with low crime rates also have strict gun laws.

Maybe it's that people who are more willing to regulate gun ownership are also less likely to commit crimes.

Also, I understand that main talking point for those against gun control in the US is that people that shouldn't own guns will still get them despite gun control, but the evidence from other nations does not support it.

Off the top of my head, it would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between homicide rates and poverty levels. It seems to me that (note - I have done no research into this) the countries with low crime rates also have low poverty rates.

The next step in that would be investigating a connection between political ideologies. By that I mean are those against gun control also against social assistance programs? It seems to me that the countries with low crime rates also have some form of universal health care, and have for quite awhile without any controversy like there has been in the USA.

What I'm getting at here is the problem in all likelihood goes a lot deeper than gun control laws and is likely something deep within the infrastructure of the country or state.

 

[jarrod49]

I agree. Also if EVERYONE had a gun, that would include the bad guys who had the bad intentions to begin with. I dunno why people who make those statements don't take this into consideration, the bad guys who have bad intentions will likely shoot you before you get to your gun.

HAHAHA bad guys already illegaly have guns buddy.

 

[Dodub]

And that's the major issue. I don't know many people who view this case rationally who believe Zimmerman should have been convicted of murder. Manslaughter is a different story. I have a problem with someone who is armed and angry following someone who hasn't done anything wrong - despite being told by a 911 operator he shouldn't do so, confronting them, and shooting and killing them. I don't think someone who initiates a confrontation and then kills the person they confronted should get the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, they should have to take the stand in order to rely on self-defense.

Crims, yet again you are right on target with this one. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Dodub]

HAHAHA bad guys already illegaly have guns buddy.

So every guy who steals, breaks in, rapes, etc. Has a gun? Every single person? Are you willing to back that up with anything of substance? Or are you just running your mouth?

Because what is being discussed is arming every last one of them.

 

[NinerSickness]

Also, I understand that main talking point for those against gun control in the US is that people that shouldn't own guns will still get them despite gun control, but the evidence from other nations does not support it.

Wait a sec... Unless I misunderstood your point... the "evidence' doesn't support that? What evidence? You mean the poll given to gang bangers asking them if they illegally acquired a gun? How could anyone possibly know who owns or how many illegally acquired guns are out there?

That's kind of like saying the evidence doesn't show that people get illegal drugs despite drug laws (hypothetically speaking).

 

[Rvnight18]

I just want to focus on the last couple sentences.

If you think racial tensions are greater now than they've ever been, I think you're either ignoring history, or ignorant to it.

Somehow I think you'd have a tough time finding blacks that lived in the south in the 50s and 60s that would be willing to agree with that statement.

Do you have any thoughts on the USA's thoughts on blacks during it's first 75 or so years of existence.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's worse now that it was in 1824?

As for Obama failing as the great uniter, one cannot force people to come together and accept each other. I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but there is a fairly significant number of people in the USA that do not particularly care for people who don't have the same skin colour as they do. No one, not even Obama (or Bush if that's your cup of tea), can force people with racist thoughts to give up those thoughts and ideas and accept all men (and women) as equals. Many people, when they feel they are being forced into something they don't want to do, tend to dig in their heels and become more belligerent on the subject.

I meant race relations are worse now than when Obama took office.

And yes I can blame a president for failing to bring people togeather when A- he said he would, and B- he injects rascim into cases where there is none. Just like when he said the police acted stupidly because his professor friend was trying to get into his house but locked his keys inside and left his ID in their as well. A neighbor called and said it looked like somebody was trying to break in. So the police came out, and held him there until his identity could be varified. But hey since his friend was black the cops were racist according to the president. When really they just did their jobs.

 

[imac_21]

I for one wish there were armed, law-abiding citizens who have enough money to spend on a gun with concealed weapons permits around me all the time. I would be MORE safe around them not less safe. Do you feel more or less likely to be shot, assaulted or otherwise harmed when a cop is around?

Since 2007 (as of last year) of the 51,084 people who have been granted concealed weapons permits, only 44 of them have been convicted of any kind of gun-crime. That's about 7 per year in the entire United States. They are not the problem. Not even close.

I think that greatly increases the chances of shots being fired. Rhetorical questions coming up:

How often do armed robberies result in shots being fired?
How often are the shots a result of a "good guy" (regardless of training) also pulling a gun?
Do you feel that the average hooligan walking around with a gun under his shirt is interested in randomly murdering people?

If a guy walks into a bank and pulls a gun to rob it, and no one else has a gun, the bank gets robbed, the guy leaves, no shots are fired.

If a guy walks into a bank and pulls a gun to rob it and someone else pulls a guy to stop him, I would imagine that the odds of shots being fired increase exponentially. Maybe the "good guy" who pulled the gun who attempted to stop the robbery is trained. The robber may not be. Now you've created a situation where shots are being fired, and you're present in the room.

I'd feel much safer if bullets weren't flying around.

But maybe that's because I live in a place where people aren't allowed to carry guns around, so I've never had the privilege of feeling protected by a whole bunch of people I don't know carrying guns around me.

Maybe I'm just a sheltered Canadian with no idea what kind of danger I'm actually in every time I go to a public place. Maybe I've just gotten lucky in not being one of the roughly 600 people (in a country of roughly 33 million) to be murdered each of the last few years (murdered in any way, not just shot).

 

[jarrod49]

So every guy who steals, breaks in, rapes, etc. Has a gun? Every single person? Are you willing to back that up with anything of substance? Or are you just running your mouth?

Because what is being discussed is arming every last one of them.

Where did I say everyone of them? and who said anything about arming all bad guys?

 

[TobyTyler]

But your statement still doesn't make sense because Martin wasn't wandering around the neighborhood uninvited and he didn't set out to confront anyone, but instead was forced into a confrontation.

Who did he come to see? I've never heard anyone come forward and say "Martin was here to visit me". In fact, didn't the defense show that Martin knew no one in that neighborhood? And he certainly wasn't "forced" into any confrontation, all he needed to do was keep walking. Instead, he tried to be a tough guy and messed with the wrong person.

 

[Dodub]

I meant race relations are worse now than when Obama took office.

And yes I can blame a president for failing to bring people togeather when A- he said he would, and B- he injects rascim into cases where there is none. Just like when he said the police acted stupidly because his professor friend was trying to get into his house but locked his keys inside and left his ID in their as well. A neighbor called and said it looked like somebody was trying to break in. So the police came out, and held him there until his identity could be varified. But hey since his friend was black the cops were racist according to the president. When really they just did their jobs.

I disagree that race relations are worse since Obama took office. Maybe in certain areas (maybe your area) but that does not mean that it is the same way nationwide.

I personally haven't seen any real shift since he took office.

 

[jarrod49]

What toby no response to my last post about you?

 

[TobyTyler]

I meant race relations are worse now than when Obama took office.

And yes I can blame a president for failing to bring people togeather when A- he said he would, and B- he injects rascim into cases where there is none. Just like when he said the police acted stupidly because his professor friend was trying to get into his house but locked his keys inside and left his ID in their as well. A neighbor called and said it looked like somebody was trying to break in. So the police came out, and held him there until his identity could be varified. But hey since his friend was black the cops were racist according to the president. When really they just did their jobs.

That's right, I forgot about that. Obama has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth. Now with his proclamation that members of the military who commit sexual assault will be punished by jail and dishonerable discharge by which he was trying to pander to the female voter, those punishments cannot be administered now because it has been determined to be "undue command influence" which is not allowed at any military trial. The guy means well but he is in so far over his head its ridiculous.