OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[NinerSickness]

Like I said a bloody nose and a couple of scratches on the head that required NO MEDICAL attention are somehow "life threatening"

I thought his nose was broken?

The crux of the case was showing whether or not Zimmerman was being attacked, not whether his injuries were life threatening or not.

 

[erckm510]

I've seen these pictures. But who doesn't get treated for those injuries at a hospital? He went to the police station right after. I dunno. I'm not a doctor. Personally I would go to a hospital to get my head checked out if it was smacked on the pavement a few times.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

I thought his nose was broken?

The crux of the case was showing whether or not Zimmerman was being attacked, not whether his injuries were life threatening or not.

No not according to Dr Bodden who said so on national TV , I am sure he would be certain before stating that.

 

[RoboticDreams]

So you are conceding that Race definitely was a factor in decisions made that night due to prior break ins happened to be done by Black male suspects..... I am not saying that it isn't understandable but for those that saying race wasn't a factor are not entirely telling the truth.

Being about race and being about racism are two very different things. I'm saying it was not motivated by his hatred of this black kid. That's my biggest problem with this case. Also, what the hell is a white Hispanic?

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

I've seen these pictures. But who doesn't get treated for those injuries at a hospital? He went to the police station right after. I dunno. I'm not a doctor. Personally I would go to a hospital to get my head checked out if it was smacked on the pavement a few times.

Probably because even he knew they were not serious Injuries , if he was aware he would be heading to court eventually you could be damn sure he would have milked it by going to an emergency room.

 

[NinerSickness]

No not according to Dr Bodden who said so on national TV , I am sure he would be certain before stating that.

Who's Dr. Boden?

This story from ABC news says his nose was broken:

George Zimmerman Medical Report Sheds Light on Injuries After Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

 

[Crimsoncrew]

There's a bit of a paradox in this sentence. If it's known that the armed person initiates a confrontation (I'm assuming you mean a physical confrontation? In other words: assault) then there would be nothing to "prove" in the first place.

The state's responsibility is to show evidence pertaining to who initiates confrontation and who was acting in self defense whether it's a bar fight or anything else. If there's a death involved, that person can't testify; so there would have to be evidence showing that a person acted in self-defense in order to avoid charges or be acquitted (like this case).

...Speaking of which: some states (Illinois I think?) have laws that say if you're in a bar and you're in a fight you get can be arrested regardless of whether you started the confrontation or not. That law doesn't seem jurisprudent IMO.

No, I don't mean a physical confrontation. We don't know who initiated the physical confrontation. What we do know these two wouldn't have crossed paths if Zimmerman hadn't followed Martin. He indisputably initiated a tense interaction, and as such, he initiated a confrontation. At that point, as the victim isn't around to say what happened, I think he should have to prove he didn't initiate the violence, and that he tried to avoid violence until he could not.

I am struck when comparing the Zimmerman case with the case of the black woman who fired a warning shot (apparently after leaving to get the gun) that the incentive of the stand your ground law is to kill the witness/victim. That's a fucked up law in my book.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was an eye witness who testified. I didn't follow this too closely. Just bits & pieces.

I never heard about that, though I didn't follow the case particularly closely. I read synopses of much of the evidence and have not heard that.

 

[NinerSickness]

No, I don't mean a physical confrontation.

Oh. That's different.

Well, walking up to a guy & questioning him isn't against the law. I don't know anyone who thinks it should be.

 

[geneh_33]

Like I said a bloody nose and a couple of scratches on the head that required NO MEDICAL attention are somehow "life threatening"

Well, I guess it was a good thing he SHOT Martin before he got his head beat into the concrete and it became serious enough to kill him, don't you?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I thought his nose was broken?

The crux of the case was showing whether or not Zimmerman was being attacked, not whether his injuries were life threatening or not.

And that is a huge problem with a DEAD VICTIM. Manslaughter/murder is different from other battery/assault crimes because the primary witness cannot testify. It blows my mind that there are laws that require the state to prove a negative - that the accused DID NOT act in self defense - when there is a very good chance there were no witnesses. Proving who started a fight based entirely on circumstantial evidence is all but impossible in most cases.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Who's Dr. Boden?

This story from ABC news says his nose was broken:

George Zimmerman Medical Report Sheds Light on Injuries After Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

Dr Bodden is a nationally known Forensic Biologist

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I thought his nose was broken?

The crux of the case was showing whether or not Zimmerman was being attacked, not whether his injuries were life threatening or not.

Re: the nose, my understanding is that it was never actually diagnosed as being broken. It certainly looks broken to me. The head wounds bled a fair amount, as most head wounds do, but did not require stitches.

 

[geneh_33]

Yes, there was an eyewitness for the prosecution.

He testified that he couldn't tell for sure but that he thought Trayvon was on top and Zimmerman was on bottom. He corroborated Zimmerman's account of the fight almost word for word. Hence, the not guilty verdict.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Well, I guess it was a good thing he SHOT Martin before he got his head beat into the concrete and it became serious enough to kill him, don't you?

No I am having a hard time understand how a 200 lb man can be so overpowered by a 158lb kid ...... Seems like a stretch of the truth for conveniency

 

[threelittleturds]

Like I said a bloody nose and a couple of scratches on the head that required NO MEDICAL attention are somehow "life threatening"

It wasn't the beating that made him feel threatened, it was when Martin reached for his gun.

I'm guessing Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, to stop it he tried to reach for his gun to scare Martin away but when Zimmerman went for his gun, Martin probably got scared for his own life and instead of running tried to get the gun himself to prevent getting shot. Then he used that as an excuse to shoot because he was afraid that if Martin got the gun from him, he'd end being shot.

Anyway, of all the possible scenarios, this is the one I choose to believe. Have you heard the 911 calls?? Zimmerman sounds scared out of his mind when he is screaming for Help.

 

[NinerSickness]

And that is a huge problem with a DEAD VICTIM. Manslaughter/murder is different from other battery/assault crimes because the primary witness cannot testify. It blows my mind that there are laws that require the state to prove a negative - that the accused DID NOT act in self defense - when there is a very good chance there were no witnesses. Proving who started a fight based entirely on circumstantial evidence is all but impossible in most cases.

That's why a case like this is so sticky. On the flip side of the proving a negative, how would one prove that a guy who used lethal force WAS acting in self defense? It seems like one's injuries would be the only thing one could use in lieu of an eyewitness...

Speaking of which, there was an eyewitness:

"Good said he was watching TV with his wife when he heard a noise outside and saw two people wrestling on the ground, with 'a lighter-skinned man' on the bottom."

Eyewitness describes Trayvon Martin's fatal struggle to Florida jury | Reuters

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Being about race and being about racism are two very different things. I'm saying it was not motivated by his hatred of this black kid. That's my biggest problem with this case. Also, what the hell is a white Hispanic?

Hispanic people can be black, white, Asian or mixed. Some 18 million Latinos checked the "some other race" category on their 2010 Census forms – which admonished in bold letters that Hispanic is not a race. So many Hispanics identified themselves as white, the overall number of white people in the United States increased.

From the Huffington Post. Hispanic often has sub-groups. Latin America was settled by white Spaniards and Portuguese. These were the functional equivalent of the British and French colonists who settled the US and Canada. White Hispanics were generally in positions of power and authority, and are often able to trace their Spanish or Portuguese lineage.

 

[geneh_33]

No I am having a hard time understand how a 200 lb man can be so overpowered by a 158lb kid ...... Seems like a stretch of the truth for conveniency

Have you ever seen a football game? Ever seen a 158 lb cornerback destroy a 200 lb tight end or running back?

Fighting isn't just about physicality. It is about hatred and the ability to inflict damage on an opponent without holding back, which a lot of (good) people can't do.

If a small man wants to hurt a bigger man by 40 lbs that doesn't want to fight, guess what's going to happen? That's what happened in this case.

Yes, a 158 lb man can and has before overpowered another man who outweighs him by 42 lbs. It happens in every football game you will ever see.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

It wasn't the beating that made him feel threatened, it was when Martin reached for his gun.

I'm guessing Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, to stop it he tried to reach for his gun to scare Martin away but when Zimmerman went for his gun, Martin probably got scared for his own life and instead of running tried to get the gun himself to prevent getting shot. Then he used that as an excuse to shoot because he was afraid that if Martin got the gun from him, he'd end being shot.

Anyway, of all the possible scenarios, this is the one I choose to believe. Have you heard the 911 calls?? Zimmerman sounds scared out of his mind when he is screaming for Help.

That could be close to the truth , for the sake of argument lets say that is how it went down how can a jury say Zimmerman is not at the very least equally responsible for Trayvons death as he is ? He decided to carry a gun to target, he decided to follow Martin instead of going to Target and he decided to not listen to the dispatchers , he decided to get out of his vehicle and put himself in harms way and he used deadly force in a fist fight...... How do you not get manslaughter or a hung jury in all of that ?