The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[MAGA2024]

I am not a Lebron fan in the sense you think I am (hence, you lied)....in that you think I am a so-called nuthugger and think he's the clear GOAT and wont say anything bad about him. It's ironic since you really are an MJ nuthugger and wont say anything bad about him.

That's because there is nothing "bad" to say about Jordan (on the basketball court, anyway)... the absolute worst part of his game (by far) was 3-point shooting, but even in that facet he was still "average" relative to his peers.

LeBron, on the other hand.... where do I start?

lol

 

[dtgold88]

STHO already fool... you can't refute what I wrote and you have yet to refute anything I have discussed with anything other than your opinion. Period. I'm not lying about anything.. don't have to lie to build an irrefutable case of Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron.

And FTR Billups IS a HOFER. whether you think he deserves it or not. But if you wish to exclude him from consideration that means LeBron only faced 3 sure-thing HOFERS in their prime (Dwight in 09, and Joker twice).

That just further drives home the notion that LeBron would have been lucky to make just a couple Finals appearances if he faced Conference Finals opponents that were even close to Jordan's competition.

I have refuted some things you wrote AND pointed out your lies....despite your Yosemite Sam-like meltdown.

Unlike you when wrong, though, I just own it and, yes, Billups a HOFer so should be included.

Hopefully you understand your last comment is opinion based on not factual. We've come so far with you so would hate for you to take a step back.

 

[dtgold88]

That's because there is nothing "bad" to say about Jordan (on the basketball court, anyway)... the absolute worst part of his game (by far) was 3-point shooting, but even in that facet he was still "average" relative to his peers.

LeBron, on the other hand.... where do I start?

lol

Not sure where you want to start but feel free to choose, true nuthugger.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

playing them tougher but losing is an accomplishment if it's MJ?

I’ve noticed that point tried to be made by MJ pundits a lot, it doesn’t make sense.

They’ll talk about how heroically MJ led his team to 2nd round losses… and then rip Lebron for winning 4 of 10 finals appearances.

 

[dtgold88]

I’ve noticed that point tried to be made by MJ pundits a lot, it doesn’t make sense.

They’ll talk about how heroically MJ led his team to 2nd round losses… and then rip Lebron for winning 4 of 10 finals appearances.

They don't even try to hide they are walking double standards.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

They don't even try to hide they are walking double standards.

The mid 00s Celtics didn't have anyone of note in their prime but MJ got swept twice by the Bird Celtics

 

[MAGA2024]

Ben Wallace, Paul George, Derozan (90 percent lock) if you completely overlook the fact he ran into an all time great Celtics team 4 years in a row while discrediting their roster lol, without again even trying

Paul George is a not a HOF lock and neither is DeRozen, with only 3 All NBA sseasons (no first team) and only 3 seasons where he was even on the MVP ballot in 16 years, no Championships, etc... and LeBron never faced (prime) Ben Wallace in the Conference Finals.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

LeBron only faced 3 sure-thing HOFERS in their prime (Dwight in 09, and Joker twice).

Curry
Durant
Thompson
Duncan
Parker
Pierce
Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul George
Jason Kidd
Melo
Westbrook
DeRozan

Wtf Are you smoking?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Paul George is a not a HOF lock and neither is DeRozen, with only 3 All NBA sseasons (no first team) and only 3 seasons where he was even on the MVP ballot in 16 years, no Championships, etc... and LeBron never faced (prime) Ben Wallace in the Conference Finals.

Paul George is a lock. This is the NBA

 

[dtgold88]

Curry
Durant
Thompson
Duncan
Parker
Pierce
Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul George
Jason Kidd
Melo
Westbrook
DeRozan

Wtf Are you smoking?

to be fair he's only talking conference finals.

Not even sure why as any reasonable person can see MJ had a tougher road TO the Finals and Lebron tougher IN the Finals. Likely why Lebron got there more often but MJ had more success once there.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Curry
Durant
Thompson
Duncan
Parker
Pierce
Garnett
Ray Allen
Paul George
Jason Kidd
Melo
Westbrook
DeRozan

Wtf Are you smoking?

He was saying in conf finals (like that matters)

 

[Stakesarehigh]

to be fair he's only talking conference finals.

Not even sure why as any reasonable person can see MJ had a tougher road TO the Finals and Lebron tougher IN the Finals. Likely why Lebron got there more often but MJ had more success once there.

Exactly

 

[Mr. Friscus]

to be fair he's only talking conference finals.

Not even sure why as any reasonable person can see MJ had a tougher road TO the Finals and Lebron tougher IN the Finals. Likely why Lebron got there more often but MJ had more success once there.

Ah. Yeah that’s somewhat fair to say.

Jordan’s finals opponents were SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Lebrons, or Magic’s, or Birds, or Russell’s, etc

 

[dtgold88]

Ah. Yeah that’s somewhat fair to say.

Jordan’s finals opponents were SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Lebrons, or Magic’s, or Birds, or Russell’s, etc

But of course the true nuthuggers here wont agree even though pretty obvious.

 

[MAGA2024]

The mid 00s Celtics didn't have anyone of note in their prime but MJ got swept twice by the Bird Celtics

Mid 00's Celtics were old and way past their primes... that's the criticism against Jordan after he beat the 91 Pistons and Magic, right? So when the logic is flipped LeBron fans want to call foul?

lol

That aside, LeBron faced those Celtics twice... in 08 and 10, and both times in the Semi's. The 08 Celtics were closer to the ages of the 91 Pistons/Lakers (but still older) YET they needed 7 games to beat the Cavs with LeBron shooting a dismal .355% from the field, and a staggering 37 Turnovers in the series... suggesting that those Cavs were a LOT better than the tomato can scrubs LeBron fans claim he was carriying every year.

In 2010 LeBron has the #1 seed in the league "and" the Cavs had a 2-1 lead on Boston (again in the Semi-Finals) BUT then proceeded to lose the next 3 straight games with LeBron averaging just 21-PPG on 18-53 shooting (34%) after averaging 32-PPG on 54% in the first 3 games... leading many fans to speculate that James flat-out quit on the Cavs intentionally because he already knew he was bolting to Miami at the end of the year... and after all, how would it look IF he took the Cavs to the Finals or won a Championship and THEN suddently announced that he's bolting to the Heat?

His entire narrative would have been blown up, leading to even MORE backlash than he already was facing... so I'm not sure how that's supposed to help LeBron in his case for GOAT, but anyway.

 

[dtgold88]

Mid 00's Celtics were old and way past their primes... that's the criticism against Jordan after he beat the 91 Pistons and Magic, right? So when the logic is flipped LeBron fans want to call foul?

lol

That aside, LeBron faced those Celtics twice... in 08 and 10, and both times in the Semi's. The 08 Celtics were closer to the ages of the 91 Pistons/Lakers (but still older) YET they needed 7 games to beat the Cavs with LeBron shooting a dismal .355% from the field, and a staggering 37 Turnovers in the series... suggesting that those Cavs were a LOT better than the tomato can scrubs LeBron fans claim he was carriying every year.

In 2010 LeBron has the #1 seed in the league "and" the Cavs had a 2-1 lead on Boston (again in the Semi-Finals) BUT then proceeded to lose the next 3 straight games with LeBron averaging just 21-PPG on 18-53 shooting (34%) after averaging 32-PPG on 54% in the first 3 games... leading many fans to speculate that James flat-out quit on the Cavs intentionally because he already knew he was bolting to Miami at the end of the year... and after all, how would it look IF he took the Cavs to the Finals or won a Championship and THEN suddently announced that he's bolting to the Heat?

His entire narrative would have been blown up, leading to even MORE backlash than he already was facing... so I'm not sure how that's supposed to help LeBron in his case for GOAT, but anyway.

Man had to stop reading again.....he's not a Lebron fan either in the sense you think he is.

Guess should ask, though, to be fair...is a Lebron fan to you just a rational, objective fan with no agenda?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Mid 00's Celtics were old and way past their primes... that's the criticism against Jordan after he beat the 91 Pistons and Magic, right? So when the logic is flipped LeBron fans want to call foul?

lol

That aside, LeBron faced those Celtics twice... in 08 and 10, and both times in the Semi's. The 08 Celtics were closer to the ages of the 91 Pistons/Lakers (but still older) YET they needed 7 games to beat the Cavs with LeBron shooting a dismal .355% from the field, and a staggering 37 Turnovers in the series... suggesting that those Cavs were a LOT better than the tomato can scrubs LeBron fans claim he was carriying every year.

In 2010 LeBron has the #1 seed in the league "and" the Cavs had a 2-1 lead on Boston (again in the Semi-Finals) BUT then proceeded to lose the next 3 straight games with LeBron averaging just 21-PPG on 18-53 shooting (34%) after averaging 32-PPG on 54% in the first 3 games... leading many fans to speculate that James flat-out quit on the Cavs intentionally because he already knew he was bolting to Miami at the end of the year... and after all, how would it look IF he took the Cavs to the Finals or won a Championship and THEN suddently announced that he's bolting to the Heat?

His entire narrative would have been blown up, leading to even MORE backlash than he already was facing... so I'm not sure how that's supposed to help LeBron in his case for GOAT, but anyway.

You being so obsessed with ages and not what actually happened tells me you're young. So I'm guessing you and Rams are the same person given you two arethe only ones I've EVER seen try to argue the 91 Lakers were in any kind of prime

 

[MAGA2024]

Ah. Yeah that’s somewhat fair to say.

Jordan’s finals opponents were SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Lebrons, or Magic’s, or Birds, or Russell’s, etc

You could argue LeBron's Finals opponents were better than Jordan's "overall"; however James finished 4-6 against that (better) Finals competition (with one of his Finals wins coming against the woefully mediocre Heat in 2020). Meanwhile Jordan went 6-2 against his (better) Conference opponents.

6-2 > 4-6, and if we combine the CF and Finals Jordan went 12-2 vs. 14-8 for LeBron.

Again, LeBron's not even close.

And FTR... all 6 of Jordan's Finals opponents finished the season with a Top 4 Net Rating, with 3 opponents finishing #2 behind the Bulls, meaning Jordan faced the best competition half the time in the Finals. He also Jordan faced 4 (of 6) opponents who won 60 or more games:

Jordan's Finals opponents
91 Lakers: 58 Wins / #3 Net Rating
92 Blazers: 57 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
93 Suns: 62 Wins / #4 Net Rating
96 Sonics: 64 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
97 Jaz: 64 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
98 Jazz: 62 Wins / #4 Net Rating

Again, go ahead and argue LeBron's Finals opponents (overall) were better, but to suggest there was anything whatsover "weak" about the teams Jordan faced in the Finals is the farthest thing from the truth.

LeBron's Conference Finals opponents were weak. That's a fact. Jordan's Finals opponents were elite, but just not as elite as "some" of the teams LeBron faced.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You being so obsessed with ages and not what actually happened tells me you're young. So I'm guessing you and Rams are the same person given you two arethe only ones I've EVER seen try to argue the 91 Lakers were in any kind of prime

Being 32 in the 80’s was ancient
Being 32 in the 2000’s was end of prime
Being 32 now you’re likely still in your prime

 

[MAGA2024]

Man had to stop reading again.....he's not a Lebron fan either in the sense you think he is.

Guess should ask, though, to be fair...is a Lebron fan to you just a rational, objective fan with no agenda?

A LeBron fan = anyone who supports his case against Jordan, as you and many others are doing in this thread.

He has no case. Period. That has been proven irrefutably throughout this thread. He's got "volume stats" and that's it, otherwise he's not close to Jordan in any other facet.. and to suggest he is makes you a James fan (or supporter) simply by default.