The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[dtgold88]

A LeBron fan = anyone who supports his case against Jordan, as you and many others are doing in this thread.

He has no case. Period. That has been proven irrefutably throughout this thread. He's got "volume stats" and that's it, otherwise he's not close to Jordan in any other facet.. and to suggest he is makes you a James fan (or supporter) simply by default.

lie rule again....no one here has even said Lebron is the GOAT but, yes, he (and KAJ) can make a case.

FYI, ending your irrational comment with "period", "lol", an emoji of GIF/meme, etc. wont make it less irrational.

Oh, and again the lie rule, but appreciate you have started lying later in your comments so I can read more. You haven't proven anything here.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Jordan's Finals opponents
91 Lakers: 58 Wins / #3 Net Rating
92 Blazers: 57 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
93 Suns: 62 Wins / #4 Net Rating
96 Sonics: 64 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
97 Jaz: 64 Wins / #2 Net Rating (Bulls were #1)
98 Jazz: 62 Wins / #4 Net Rating

Having high wins and net rating during a weak era doesn’t elevate your claim. The Jazz were elderly and only started winning 60 games because the league was so weak. Malone and Stockton had far better teams but had to face the 80’s Lakers, 80’s Blazers, 90’s Rockets, etc.

You’re trying to equate all wins as the same.. they aren’t. I’m not saying your claims are meaningless, I like diving into statistics. But you’re simplifying things that arent that simple

 

[Mr. Friscus]

FYI, ending your irrational comment with "period", "lol", an emoji of GIF/meme, etc. wont make it less irrational.

Dt… John Starks is the GOAT.. PERIOD

end of story. We can’t argue that. The word “period” was used. That’s a debate-ender, a mic-drop.. it trumps any other point

 

[dtgold88]

Having high wins and net rating during a weak era doesn’t elevate your claim. The Jazz were elderly and only started winning 60 games because the league was so weak.

You’re trying to equate all wins as the same.. they aren’t. I’m not saying your claims are meaningless, I like diving into statistics. But you’re simplifying things that arent that simple

Hard to imagine any reasonable person thinks those opponents (no matter the net rating) stack up to the GS or even the SA teams Lebron faced.

Never mind never an explanation how Lebron able to drag a team to Finals with Z as his #2 or win 2 Finals games with Delly as the #2. MJ never even won a playoff series without Pippen holding his hand (of course Pippen won without MJ).

 

[MAGA2024]

You being so obsessed with ages and not what actually happened tells me you're young. So I'm guessing you and Rams are the same person given you two arethe only ones I've EVER seen try to argue the 91 Lakers were in any kind of prime

I'm obsessed with age??? LOL... who uses the "91 Pistons and 91 Lakers were old" line repeatedly against Jorda, me or LeBron fans? Yet once again, when the narrative is flipped then LeBron fans cry foul.

lol

By hey, if not age to define prime then how about using All NBA selections, or MVP voting? The 2010 Celtics had NO player receive consideration in either category that year. What about stats? Well Pierce, Garnett and Allen all put up numbers below their actual prime-aged "years" (say 23-32), and not just below, WELL below.

So if none of those criteria determin prime, how do you measure it?

 

[dtgold88]

I'm obsessed with age??? LOL... who uses the "91 Pistons and 91 Lakers were old" line repeatedly against Jorda, me or LeBron fans? Yet once again, when the narrative is flipped then LeBron fans cry foul.

lol

By hey, if not age to define prime then how about using All NBA selections, or MVP voting? The 2010 Celtics had NO player receive consideration in either category that year. What about stats? Well Pierce, Garnett and Allen all put up numbers below their actual prime-aged "years" (say 23-32), and not just below, WELL below.

So if none of those criteria determin prime, how do you measure it?

damn....misuse of Lebron fans (lie) again.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I'm obsessed with age??? LOL... who uses the "91 Pistons and 91 Lakers were old" line repeatedly against Jorda, me or LeBron fans?

The issue is you equating being 31 in 1990 vs being 31 in 2025.

It’s not the same. Those who were there know, those who know the history of physical conditioning know

 

[MAGA2024]

lie rule again....no one here has even said Lebron is the GOAT but, yes, he (and KAJ) can make a case.

FYI, ending your irrational comment with "period", "lol", an emoji of GIF/meme, etc. wont make it less irrational.

Oh, and again the lie rule, but appreciate you have started lying later in your comments so I can read more. You haven't proven anything here.

So no one here thinks LeBron is the GOAT, and no one is a LeBron fan.... yet this thread is near 30 pages long and counting.

LOL... tell it to the hand, bub.

 

[dtgold88]

So no one here thinks LeBron is the GOAT, and no one is a LeBron fan.... yet this thread is near 30 pages long and counting.

LOL... tell it to the hand, bub.

Because we all know how great Lebron is and a strong case can be made for him (or even KAJ) as the GOAT.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I'm obsessed with age??? LOL... who uses the "91 Pistons and 91 Lakers were old" line repeatedly against Jorda, me or LeBron fans? Yet once again, when the narrative is flipped then LeBron fans cry foul.

lol

By hey, if not age to define prime then how about using All NBA selections, or MVP voting? The 2010 Celtics had NO player receive consideration in either category that year. What about stats? Well Pierce, Garnett and Allen all put up numbers below their actual prime-aged "years" (say 23-32), and not just below, WELL below.

So if none of those criteria determin prime, how do you measure it?

You dont seem to have walking knowledge of these events. Calling the 2008 Celtics old is pretty funny. KG was runner up DPOY, Allen contributed to multiple finals teams in a big way, Pierce was still the same guy at 33.

Whereas Magic retired in 92, Those Lakers teams never won another playoff series

 

[MAGA2024]

Having high wins and net rating during a weak era doesn’t elevate your claim. The Jazz were elderly and only started winning 60 games because the league was so weak. Malone and Stockton had far better teams but had to face the 80’s Lakers, 80’s Blazers, 90’s Rockets, etc.

You’re trying to equate all wins as the same.. they aren’t. I’m not saying your claims are meaningless, I like diving into statistics. But you’re simplifying things that arent that simple

The 97 Jazz beat the Dream/Barkely/Drexler Rockets and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WC. The following year the old and weak (98) Jazz beat those same Rockets, they SWEPT the Shaq/Kobe Lakers (who had 4 all stars that year) and they crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (who would win the Championship the very next season).

Net Rating can only tell you the competition level at the time, meaning during any given season... and Jordan's Finals opponents were elite based on that Rating and their W/L records. Nothing whatsoever weak about his opponents. Sure, overall they may not have been as great as "some" of the team's LeBron faced, but to call them weak is laughable... even compared to the Durant/Curry Warriors they were not weak by any relevant measurement or criteria.

LeBron's Conference Finals opponents OTOH, as I have illustrated, were absolutely weak relative to Jordan's CF opponents.

 

[dtgold88]

The 97 Jazz beat the Dream/Barkely/Drexler Rockets and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WC. The following year the old and weak (98) Jazz beat those same Rockets, they SWEPT the Shaq/Kobe Lakers (who had 4 all stars that year) and they crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (who would win the Championship the very next season).

Net Rating can only tell you the competition level at the time, meaning during any given season... and Jordan's Finals opponents were elite based on that Rating and their W/L records. Nothing whatsoever weak about his opponents. Sure, overall they may not have been as great as "some" of the team's LeBron faced, but to call them weak is laughable... even compared to the Durant/Curry Warriors they were not weak by any relevant measurement or criteria.

LeBron's Conference Finals opponents OTOH, as I have illustrated, were absolutely weak relative to Jordan's CF opponents.

to not even be able to call those teams weak compared to the Curry/Durant warriors is all that's laughable.

That and you cannot explain why Lebron can drag a team with Z as second best player to Finals and win 2 Finals games with Delly as his #2 while MJ cannot even win a playoff series without Pippen holding his hand.

 

[msgkings322]

The 97 Jazz beat the Dream/Barkely/Drexler Rockets and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WC. The following year the old and weak (98) Jazz beat those same Rockets, they SWEPT the Shaq/Kobe Lakers (who had 4 all stars that year) and they crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (who would win the Championship the very next season).

Net Rating can only tell you the competition level at the time, meaning during any given season... and Jordan's Finals opponents were elite based on that Rating and their W/L records. Nothing whatsoever weak about his opponents. Sure, overall they may not have been as great as "some" of the team's LeBron faced, but to call them weak is laughable... even compared to the Durant/Curry Warriors they were not weak by any relevant measurement or criteria.

LeBron's Conference Finals opponents OTOH, as I have illustrated, were absolutely weak relative to Jordan's CF opponents.

How come you keep ignoring multiple posters telling you:

1. MJ is GOAT
2. Almost none of us rate LeBron over him
3. LeBron is very close to but not above MJ in resume

You go on for pages parsing minute and impossible to prove opinions like who faced more difficult CF opponents, like that means they weren't both all time greats

The GOAT conversation is impossible to "prove", it's in the end an opinion and will be based on your personal preferences. Different teammates, eras, coaches, opponents, rules, positions, etc. You are in love with MJ so to you he's GOAT. Most of us agree. Where you are being an idiot is to keep trying to tear down one of the few players in NBA history who can be considered GOAT level. There's only really 3, 4-5 if you have some harder to defend opinions (Wilt, Russell).

You even started a whole other thread of enormous length, it got deleted, and you put it up again. This argument means far more to you than is healthy LOL. Jordan is never going to fuck you, dude.

 

[MAGA2024]

Hard to imagine any reasonable person thinks those opponents (no matter the net rating) stack up to the GS or even the SA teams Lebron faced.

Never mind never an explanation how Lebron able to drag a team to Finals with Z as his #2 or win 2 Finals games with Delly as the #2. MJ never even won a playoff series without Pippen holding his hand (of course Pippen won without MJ).

Jordan's Finals opponents ABSOLUTELY stack up to the Spurs, Mavs. Heat and Warriors (excluding the two years with Durant)... and only a LeBron Homer / MJ Hater would make such a blanket statement with zero substance to back it up.

...and I already thoroughly embarrassed you with your silly Pippen comments, so you don't want to go there again. Stay on point.

 

[dtgold88]

Jordan's Finals opponents ABSOLUTELY stack up to the Spurs, Mavs. Heat and Warriors (excluding the two years with Durant)... and only a LeBron Homer / MJ Hater would make such a blanket statement with zero substance to back it up.

...and I already thoroughly embarrassed you with your silly Pippen comments, so you don't want to go there again. Stay on point.

No Lebron homers or MJ haters here, Tommy Boy. Had to stop again.

 

[dtgold88]

How come you keep ignoring multiple posters telling you:

1. MJ is GOAT
2. Almost none of us rate LeBron over him
3. LeBron is very close to but not above MJ in resume

You go on for pages parsing minute and impossible to prove opinions like who faced more difficult CF opponents, like that means they weren't both all time greats

The GOAT conversation is impossible to "prove", it's in the end an opinion and will be based on your personal preferences. Different teammates, eras, coaches, opponents, rules, positions, etc. You are in love with MJ so to you he's GOAT. Most of us agree. Where you are being an idiot is to keep trying to tear down one of the few players in NBA history who can be considered GOAT level. There's only really 3, 4-5 if you have some harder to defend opinions (Wilt, Russell).

You even started a whole other thread of enormous length, it got deleted, and you put it up again. This argument means far more to you than is healthy LOL. Jordan is never going to fuck you, dude.

I may be the closest here to thinking Lebron is the GOAT but thought needed another title to get there. don't think he'll get it. But, man, if he can go another 3-4 years at this level.........?

 

[MAGA2024]

The issue is you equating being 31 in 1990 vs being 31 in 2025.

It’s not the same. Those who were there know, those who know the history of physical conditioning know

We're not talking about 2025... and FTR I got arrested outside a bar in Chicago (for drunk and disorder - lol) after a Finals game during the Bulls 1991 run, so yeah I was "there".

Magic, Worthy and Dumars were all All NBA players when the Bulls beat them in 91. Rodman was DPOY and Isiah missed 34 regular season games but he finished Top 13 in MVP voting and was healthy in the ECF. They were not old, and to suggest they were means you were the one not around at the time.

 

[MAGA2024]

Because we all know how great Lebron is and a strong case can be made for him (or even KAJ) as the GOAT.

Yet none of you have made that case, all you're doing is (attempting) to refute my points and defending LeBron vehemently.

Interesting... buuuuut no one here is a LeBron fan.

lol

 

[dtgold88]

Yet none of you have made that case, all you're doing is (attempting) to refute my points and defending LeBron vehemently.

Interesting... buuuuut no one here is a LeBron fan.

lol

lie rule...we have all made a strong case for him...some even for KAJ.

Can you go back to lying late so I can see more of your comments, Tommy?

Admittedly I do wonder how long I can keep getting you to dance here by simply thinking another really good player exists who can be compared to MJ.

 

[msgkings322]

I may be the closest here to thinking Lebron is the GOAT but thought needed another title to get there. don't think he'll get it. But, man, if he can go another 3-4 years at this level.........?

It's still longevity vs peak/impact/FMVPs though

As we keep saying, in this unprovable discussion 3 guys all can make a case.