The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[dtgold88]

It's still longevity vs peak/impact/FMVPs though

As we keep saying, in this unprovable discussion 3 guys all can make a case.

very true.....what helps Lebron is he has longevity and at least now still playing at an elite level. Not sure there has ever been a player this old playing at this level. Maybe at any sport (other than Brady?).

 

[dtgold88]

The entire " so and so needed _______" is dumb regardless of who it is

No one had ever won a multiple NBA titles as the only great player on their team

Not MJ
Not LeBron
Not Kareem
Not Magic
Not Russell or Kobe or Shaq or Bird or Hakeem or Steph

Saying " well the guy you think is great needed help!" Is beyond stupid. Since so did every guy

Fair.....but Lebron got to the Finals with Z as his #2 and won Finals games with Delly as his #2.

 

[dtgold88]

No he's not.... and you/others simply saying "yes he is because we said so" doesn't cut the mustard.

And the fact that this thread is 30 pages long suggests that many of you are just as obsessed with your opinion... except you bring empty rhetoric while I bring facts, stats and substance.

If that upsets you, here's an idea: STOP responding to my posts and get lost.

OK? and you saying "no, he's not" isn't exactly proof.

You bring irrational, agenda and ignore facts.

Upsets him (or anyone)? While I have seen you have Yosemite Sam-like meltdowns along with other MJ nuthuggers that hardly seems to be the case of those who don't hug his nuts.

 

[dtgold88]

You stopped because you have nothing except an opinion not backed with facts or substance.

No, I'm clear why I stopped. You lie I stop reading....which you did here but didn't matter since nothing after your lie.

 

[dtgold88]

In this thread?

LOL

Where???

Also, you come across as a moron with the "Tommy" reference. Don't know and don't care WTH that's supposed to mean, but I just thought you should know.

Yes. Many have. No reason to remind you as you prefer your own lies to actual facts.

 

[dtgold88]

You don't have to be upset, just bring the facts and substance to back up your argument so I can ignore them and claim

I have yet to see any, from anyone.

FIFY

 

[dtgold88]

Some days I am not sure which is funnier.

The desperation of LeBron fans to prove he's the GOAT.

Or the desperation of LeBron Haters to prove it's anyone else but.

Not one person here trying to prove Lebron is the GOAT but the latter comment is true.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I've said it several times in this thread, I don't care if someone thinks it is MJ, I personally list them 1A and 1B. I take issue with the extreme narrative MJ homers have when it comes to LeBron while ignoring any possible flaw in MJs resume. And again, it's extremely damaging (imo) to the sport the amount of nonsense MJ homers hold on to, as it harms the trajectory of the sport.

Most of the “points” are pretty much dogma and mythology. They treat him like a demigod.. probably hangin into their younger years by puffing their generations guy.

 

[dtgold88]

Oh the irony… stfu. You don’t have Jack shit except stupid posts. Come back with something good for a change

oh, the irony.

 

[dtgold88]

Oh Jordan needed Pippen, but but Lebron….

Lebron got to a Finals without any of those guys and even won Finals games without any of them.

MJ never even won a playoff series without Pippen.

More facts to ignore for the true nuthuggers.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I often compare MJ cross sport to Mike Tyson

That’s a good comparison

Tyson was dominant, but we never found out how much because he didn’t have a all-time legend to beat.

Plus Jordan never won without Phil Jackson, Pippen, and a stable organization.

I’m not saying it makes the case, but Lebron won titles on 3 teams with multiple coaches and unstable organizations. That’s impressive

 

[dtgold88]

That’s a good comparison

Tyson was dominant, but we never found out how much because he didn’t have a all-time legend to beat.

Plus Jordan never won without Phil Jackson, Pippen, and a stable organization.

I’m not saying it makes the case, but Lebron won titles on 3 teams with multiple coaches and unstable organizations. That’s impressive

Not sure I'd call Miami unstable. Hell, not even sure I'd call the Cavs or Lakers unstable. Both just fell off the map trying to replace one of the best players in the sport....and each was able to add Lebron to get back to the top.

But mostly agree with your premise.

 

[rmilia1]

Fair.....but Lebron got to the Finals with Z as his #2 and won Finals games with Delly as his #2.

Sure but he didn't win titles without help. There are dudes who made a Finals as really the only great player ( still very rare though )

 

[rmilia1]

That’s a good comparison

Tyson was dominant, but we never found out how much because he didn’t have a all-time legend to beat.

Plus Jordan never won without Phil Jackson, Pippen, and a stable organization.

I’m not saying it makes the case, but Lebron won titles on 3 teams with multiple coaches and unstable organizations. That’s impressive

The 2 guys are very similar but their careers had a different arc. Kind of the polar opposite.

MJ couldn't beat the great 80s teams ( Celtics, Philly, Lakers, Pistons ) but his fan base has the " well he was soooo young" ( even though he really was not. He lost to all those teams until his late 20s which was at least 2-3 years into what is typically seen as a players prime. And he only started winning once those teams hear players were gone. And then he dominated what was probably the least talented decade in NBA history

Tyson was dominant early (;mid 80s to early 90s ) after the great fighters of the 70s were mostly gone. Probably the worst decade for heavyweights ever. He then got beat by every other great fighter he ever faced after the early 90s but his fans have the " well he wasn't the same after prison" even though he was only 29 when he got out of prison which isn't even really into what would typically be seen as a fighters prime


Both guys won vs bad competition. Lost to the great guys they faced but both had built in excuses as to why

 

[dtgold88]

Sure but he didn't win titles without help. There are dudes who made a Finals as really the only great player ( still very rare though )

Right so we'd agree both Lebron and MJ (and probably anyone who won a title) had a great player or players to help.

But, Lebron and not MJ was able to get to Finals and even win Finals' games without such a player. MJ never even won a playoff series without such a player (Lebron won many).

 

[rmilia1]

Right so we'd agree both Lebron and MJ (and probably anyone who won a title) had a great player or players to help.

But, Lebron and not MJ was able to get to Finals and even win Finals' games without such a player. MJ never even won a playoff series without such a player (Lebron won many).

Sure but that's also a function ( as you stated ) of MJs path TO the Finals being much more difficult. Like do i think the 07 Cavs are beating the 89 Pistons? No

Do i think the 89 Bulls could beat the 07 Pistons? Yes.

But that's largely guesswork lol

 

[dtgold88]

Sure but that's also a function ( as you stated ) of MJs path TO the Finals being much more difficult. Like do i think the 07 Cavs are beating the 89 Pistons? No

Do i think the 89 Bulls could beat the 07 Pistons? Yes.

But that's largely guesswork lol

Might be right......but 2007 Pistons not exactly a bad team and considered a title favorite. But the real question is could his Bulls' teams pre-Scotty beat that team (as that's pretty much what Lebron had) and I think answer is no.

But again we don't know this.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

But again we don't know this.

While we’re relatively honest about it, it sure as hell doesn’t stop the “nut huggers” from claiming it! LOL

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Not sure I'd call Miami unstable. Hell, not even sure I'd call the Cavs or Lakers unstable. Both just fell off the map trying to replace one of the best players in the sport....and each was able to add Lebron to get back to the top.

But mostly agree with your premise.

Franchise Stability is huge for team dynasty success. Think Lakers/Celtics, Spurs, Warriors, Bulls, even Patriots if you want to go NFL.

Now let’s compare MJ to Lebron as far as who benefitted from it more. Both Start with constant change, but Compare these careers:

Jordan: From Year 5 (1989) to his second retirement from the Bulls, he had one coach, one GM, and one owner.

Lebron had 4 coaches, 2 GM’s, and an ownership change in Cleveland in just his first 7 years. He goes to Miami with a rookie coach Spelstra under a self-installed rookie GM in Pat Riley. He comes back to Cleveland to a rookie European Coach in David Blatt under a different GM than when he left. Blatt is out by the next year for Ty Lue who is rookie coach. He goes to the Lakers under young coach Luke Walton only for tons of drama to explode as president of basketball operations Magic Johnson resigns saying he was backstabbed by GM Rob Pelinka. Walton is ousted from Head coach for Frank Vogul, and then rookie coach Darvin Ham is brought in.

MJ: 4 coaches, 2 GM’s (his rookie year was Rob Thorn, all others were Krause), and 1 Owner. If you want to add his Wizards swan song you can, but they were never a contender.

Lebron: 10 Coaches, 5 GM’s, 4 owners

IMO, it’s impressive a player with so much change was able to achieve so much success with so many different variables and versions.

 

[msgkings322]

Franchise Stability is huge for team dynasty success. Think Lakers/Celtics, Spurs, Warriors, Bulls, even Patriots if you want to go NFL.

Now let’s compare MJ to Lebron as far as who benefitted from it more. Both Start with constant change, but Compare these careers:

Jordan: From Year 5 (1989) to his second retirement from the Bulls, he had one coach, one GM, and one owner.

Lebron had 4 coaches, 2 GM’s, and an ownership change in Cleveland in just his first 7 years. He goes to Miami with a rookie coach Spelstra under a self-installed rookie GM in Pat Riley. He comes back to Cleveland to a rookie European Coach in David Blatt under a different GM than when he left. Blatt is out by the next year for Ty Lue who is rookie coach. He goes to the Lakers under young coach Luke Walton only for tons of drama to explode as president of basketball operations Magic Johnson resigns saying he was backstabbed by GM Rob Pelinka. Walton is ousted from Head coach for Frank Vogul, and then rookie coach Darvin Ham is brought in.

MJ: 4 coaches, 2 GM’s (his rookie year was Rob Thorn, all others were Krause), and 1 Owner. If you want to add his Wizards swan song you can, but they were never a contender.

Lebron: 10 Coaches, 5 GM’s, 4 owners

IMO, it’s impressive a player with so much change was able to achieve so much success with so many different variables and versions.

Right, winning FMVP for 3 different teams (never been done) should count towards his GOAT resume