OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[Crimsoncrew]

Oh. That's different.

Well, walking up to a guy & questioning him isn't against the law. I don't know anyone who thinks it should be.

No. But if that guy ends up dead, I think the person who killed him should bear the burden of proving self-defense. At least by a preponderance of the evidence.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Yes, there was an eyewitness for the prosecution.

He testified that he couldn't tell for sure but that he thought Trayvon was on top and Zimmerman was on bottom. He corroborated Zimmerman's account of the fight almost word for word. Hence, the not guilty verdict.

That's testimony about who is winning the fight, not about who initiated the fight. And there was another witness who said that Zimmerman was on top.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Have you ever seen a football game? Ever seen a 158 lb cornerback destroy a 200 lb tight end or running back?

Fighting isn't just about physicality. It is about hatred and the ability to inflict damage on an opponent without holding back, which a lot of (good) people can't do.

If a small man wants to hurt a bigger man by 40 lbs that doesn't want to fight, guess what's going to happen? That's what happened in this case.

Yes, a 158 lb man can and has before overpowered another man who outweighs him by 42 lbs. It happens in every football game you will ever see.

I doubt Trayvon had a 20 yard sprint before he hit Zimmerman like a cornerback, the lack of serious injuries prove that , If Zimmerman didn't want to fight maybe it was because he had the trump card in a concealed weapon to use instead.

 

[geneh_33]

It wasn't the beating that made him feel threatened, it was when Martin reached for his gun.

I'm guessing Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, to stop it he tried to reach for his gun to scare Martin away but when Zimmerman went for his gun, Martin probably got scared for his own life and instead of running tried to get the gun himself to prevent getting shot. Then he used that as an excuse to shoot because he was afraid that if Martin got the gun from him, he'd end being shot.

Anyway, of all the possible scenarios, this is the one I choose to believe. Have you heard the 911 calls?? Zimmerman sounds scared out of his mind when he is screaming for Help.

Yes, but if you are right in your viewpoint, Trayvon should have backed off, jumped off and ran the very second he knew his opponent was packing. But Trayvon kept on fighting an armed man and ended up dead. That's about par for the course. I know I would have tried once to knock the gun away and then ran faster than any man on Earth ever has to get away without getting shot!

 

[geneh_33]

I doubt Trayvon had a 20 yard sprint before he hit Zimmerman like a cornerback, the lack of serious injuries prove that , If Zimmerman didn't want to fight maybe it was because he had the trump card in a concealed weapon to use instead.

Cornerbacks rarely get any kind of sprint before they tackle a man. Have you ever played corner? I have. Usually a guy is in your face before you even realize he has the ball or it's coming your way.

Yes and one thing nobody wants to talk about is that Zimmerman had one hand committed to getting the gun so he was attempting to defend himself one-handed against an opponent on top of him using two hands. Are you getting the picture now?

 

[NinerSickness]

No. But if that guy ends up dead, I think the person who killed him should bear the burden of proving self-defense. At least by a preponderance of the evidence.

So in that hypothetical, what kind of evidence would you consider?

1. No injuries to the deceased except to knuckles (and bullet wound of course).
2. Injuries to shooter include broken nose, head & face lacerations.
3. Eyewitness saw them wrestling with deceased on top of shooter.

Is this enough evidence to show self defense in your opinion? If not, what evidence is missing that would have proven self defense (assuming that was actually the case).

 

[Crimsoncrew]

That's why a case like this is so sticky. On the flip side of the proving a negative, how would one prove that a guy who used lethal force WAS acting in self defense? It seems like one's injuries would be the only thing one could use in lieu of an eyewitness...

Speaking of which, there was an eyewitness:

"Good said he was watching TV with his wife when he heard a noise outside and saw two people wrestling on the ground, with 'a lighter-skinned man' on the bottom."

Eyewitness describes Trayvon Martin's fatal struggle to Florida jury | Reuters

No one disputes Zimmerman was getting the worse end of the fight. The issue is who STARTED it.

If I go up to someone and throw a punch, then proceed to get my ass kicked, I shouldn't be able to kill that person and get off scot-free. Zimmerman was armed, followed someone, forced a confrontation, and then shot that person. I feel that should be manslaughter unless the shooter can prove otherwise.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Question: if Martin had killed Zimmerman, would all you folks have defended Martin as vigorously as you are defending Zimmerman?

Anyone? Shockingly, folks aren't falling over themselves to answer this fairly simple question.

 

[erckm510]

I doubt Trayvon had a 20 yard sprint before he hit Zimmerman like a cornerback, the lack of serious injuries prove that , If Zimmerman didn't want to fight maybe it was because he had the trump card in a concealed weapon to use instead.

I also don't think Martin had a helmet to use as a weapon.

 

[threelittleturds]

The NCAAP, the big Reverends Sharpton and Jackson, and all of their political might are what let Zimmerman go free. They pushed so hard for murder charges when the key to that conviction was proving that Zimmerman only went after him because he was black, which is freakin impossible to prove.

If they would have just stuck with manslaughter, and built the case around that they probably would have got a conviction because when Martin took off running and Zimmerman got out of his car to chase him on foot, with the 911 dispatcher telling him to stop, but he kept chasing anyways... he pretty much put himself into harms way at that point and any claim of self-defense is out the window. Self defense is when you're minding your own business and people attack you in my opinion. Not when you run after someone who never threatened you. Only a crazy person would say anything after that is self defense... he went looking for a confrontation and got one, and as a result Martin was killed. That is 100% pure manslaughter in my eyes.

Unfortunately, manslaughter doesn't have the same political prestige as murder, so foolishly they went after something they could never prove. I think they realized that at the end when they were like, shit our case is weak, don't forget you can find him guilty of manslaughter.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Yes, but if you are right in your viewpoint, Trayvon should have backed off, jumped off and ran the very second he knew his opponent was packing. But Trayvon kept on fighting an armed man and ended up dead. That's about par for the course. I know I would have tried once to knock the gun away and then ran faster than any man on Earth ever has to get away without getting shot!

How do you know he wasn't backing off while he was shot .....The shot could have been anywhere up to a foot and a half away and the trajectory is consistent with that..... All you are going by is the word of the shooter and he was looking down 30 years in prison ....just maybe he had reasons to not divulge that fact ?

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

The NCAAP, the big Reverends Sharpton and Jackson, and all of their political might are what let Zimmerman go free. They pushed so hard for murder charges when the key to that conviction was proving that Zimmerman only went after him because he was black, which is freakin impossible to prove.

If they would have just stuck with manslaughter, and built the case around that they probably would have got a conviction because when Martin took off running and Zimmerman got out of his car to chase him on foot, with the 911 dispatcher telling him to stop, but he kept chasing anyways... he pretty much put himself into harms way at that point and any claim of self-defense is out the window. Self defense is when you're minding your own business and people attack you in my opinion. Not when you run after someone who never threatened you. Only a crazy person would say anything after that is self defense... he went looking for a confrontation and got one, and as a result Martin was killed. That is 100% pure manslaughter in my eyes.

Unfortunately, manslaughter doesn't have the same political prestige as murder, so foolishly they went after something they could never prove. I think they realized that at the end when they were like, shit our case is weak, don't forget you can find him guilty of manslaughter.

But manslaughter was an option to the jury ? Whats your point ?

 

[threelittleturds]

Yes, but if you are right in your viewpoint, Trayvon should have backed off, jumped off and ran the very second he knew his opponent was packing. But Trayvon kept on fighting an armed man and ended up dead. That's about par for the course. I know I would have tried once to knock the gun away and then ran faster than any man on Earth ever has to get away without getting shot!

If you just beat the shit out of someone and they went for their gun, would you assume they weren't going to shoot you as you ran away? I think I'd assume that they were planning to shoot me and I'd try to wrestle the gun away. A bullet to the chest at less than 1 foot is just as deadly as a bullet to the back as you're running away.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Have you ever seen a football game? Ever seen a 158 lb cornerback destroy a 200 lb tight end or running back?

Fighting isn't just about physicality. It is about hatred and the ability to inflict damage on an opponent without holding back, which a lot of (good) people can't do.

If a small man wants to hurt a bigger man by 40 lbs that doesn't want to fight, guess what's going to happen? That's what happened in this case.

Yes, a 158 lb man can and has before overpowered another man who outweighs him by 42 lbs. It happens in every football game you will ever see.

I don't know that I've ever seen a professional football game in which a 158 pound man did much of anything on defense. There are a handful of offensive skill players below the 170s, but Brandon Banks is the only guy I can think of in the 150s. I can't think of any defenders who are below 170.

 

[NinerSickness]

No one disputes Zimmerman was getting the worse end of the fight. The issue is who STARTED it.

Not necessarily. Say Martin starts it by punching Zimmerman in the face and Zimmerman falls to the ground. Say he kicks Zimmerman a couple of times & then walks away. Say Zimmerman then stands up and shoots Martin. That would be manslaughter or 2nd degree murder (I don't know which one).

Or say Zimmerman shoves Martin and Martin kicks Zimmerman's ass in retaliation (legally justified). But then say Zimmerman is subdued and Martin then climbs on top of Zimmerman and continues punching him from an elevated position. Then Martin a shooting would be in self defense even though Zimmerman was guilty of assault.

These kinds of cases are very tricky.

 

[geneh_33]

That's testimony about who is winning the fight, not about who initiated the fight. And there was another witness who said that Zimmerman was on top.

There was only ONE eyewitness. So the other person's testimony isn't an eyewitness account.

 

[threelittleturds]

But manslaughter was an option to the jury ? Whats your point ?

From what I read and heard on the news, they didn't make a case for manslaughter. They made a case for murder. It wasn't until the closing arguments that they mentioned manslaughter and that is when the defense lawyers freaked out because it wasn't brought up until the very end and I guess up to that point they were only building a case against murder, not the lesser charges.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Anyone? Shockingly, folks aren't falling over themselves to answer this fairly simple question.

We all know the answer to that I have another hypothetical how about the person under the Hoody was a 158lb 17 year old girl who start to whoop his ass and he shoots her do you think he gets the same support as he did for "defending" himself against Trayvon ?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Cornerbacks rarely get any kind of sprint before they tackle a man. Have you ever played corner? I have. Usually a guy is in your face before you even realize he has the ball or it's coming your way.

Yes and one thing nobody wants to talk about is that Zimmerman had one hand committed to getting the gun so he was attempting to defend himself one-handed against an opponent on top of him using two hands. Are you getting the picture now?

Well that doesn't really work. If he was trying to get the gun immediately, it seems unlikely he could have been in reasonable fear for his life at that point. Conversely, if Martin was also reaching for the gun, then they'd each have one hand for fighting.

 

[erckm510]

Somebody here mentioned that they carried a weapon and they show it off to ward off would be attackers. My question is why didn't Zimmerman announce he has a gun and stay away from me. Unless Martin attacked him when Zimmerman wasn't looking but we know that they had some type of conversation before the fight so they had to be facing each other and aware of one another. One would think that if you told someone you had a gun then that person would stay the fuck away from you.