Offseason thread, WR hunt, Cap Space now $4.768M not counting JJ and Jacobs

[Bemular]

My questions are just that, questions. You made some statements and I asked you to support them. You have said everyone except Crabtree has improved. Back that up with evidence. You love to talk stats, shouldn't be too hard to support such apparently obvious claims. Who has improved and by how much relative to Crabtree? Who has had success and how much relative to Crabtree? You stated your opinion, I'm asking you to support it.

Now, I did state a few opinions in there. Since you're a bit shaky on identifying opinions, I'll help you out:

Davis gets open often because he is a physical mismatch. Davis is nearly unstoppable down the seam, and Smith throws that pass well.

Crabtree is not a great receiver. He does not have great physical tools. He had not developed tools that can be developed. He has been better, comparatively, than one of the weakest-armed QBs to ever start an NFL game.

Smith is not very good throwing to the sidelines. Smith is not very good at throwing the slant. Crabtree is hurt to some extent because Smith struggles throwing these balls.

Then we have some questions (see above).

Morgan's statistical performance has not improved very much, and certainly not much given the context (first three and a half years in the league, moving from backup to starter).

If you disagree with any of those, feel free to point it out and explain why you disagree. If you don't want to, don't. But don't accuse people of moving the goal posts and then weasel your way out of answering direct questions. That's pretty chickenshit.

I'll take your becoming a dick as your concession that you have nothing rational or intelligent to add to this discussion. Last night it was Southern and now tonight it's me - you have some serious problems Crimsoncrew.

The hilarious part of this is our opinions are probably not that different. I was simply attempting to present a different way to look at the facts and that is all it took to send you over the edge - kind of sad.

 

[Flyingiguana]

i'm very objective in my analysis. outside of one starting TE spot (i consider our offense to need two starting TE's), every position on offense could use an upgrade.

well to add, LG i can live with, but iupati didn't make the strides i thought he would this year.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I'll take your becoming a dick as your concession that you have nothing rational or intelligent to add to this discussion. Last night it was Southern and now tonight it's me - you have some serious problems Crimsoncrew.

The hilarious part of this is our opinions are probably not that different. I was simply attempting to present a different way to look at the facts and that is all it took to send you over the edge - kind of sad.

You accuse me of changing the topic when that's precisely what you're doing. Your last three posts have been absolutely worthless. All you're doing is evading my questions. If you can't answer them, fine. Either acknowledge that or walk away. Instead, you're making meaningless and frankly inaccurate statements about my discussion points. That's chickenshit in my book. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

 

[Bemular]

You accuse me of changing the topic when that's precisely what you're doing. Your last three posts have been absolutely worthless. All you're doing is evading my questions. If you can't answer them, fine. Either acknowledge that or walk away. Instead, you're making meaningless and frankly inaccurate statements about my discussion points. That's chickenshit in my book. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Say something accurate and intelligent or not that is fine with me.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Say something accurate and intelligent or not that is fine with me.

Does somebody need a timeout?

Again, answer the questions or don't. Just be honest about what you're doing when you avoid them.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

i'm very objective in my analysis. outside of one starting TE spot (i consider our offense to need two starting TE's), every position on offense could use an upgrade.

well to add, LG i can live with, but iupati didn't make the strides i thought he would this year.

Sure you are.

I agree we can upgrade every position but TE. And that includes QB.

 

[Bemular]

Does somebody need a timeout?

Again, answer the questions or don't. Just be honest about what you're doing when you avoid them.

I believe I have been perfectly honest with you - is it possible that, just as you did last night with Southern, that you are just seeing something that isn't there or perhaps not seeing something that is?

 

[Flyingiguana]

Sure you are.

I agree we can upgrade every position but TE. And that includes QB.

how the hell am i not?

the best we can do is look in hindsight. last offseason i said smith was our best option going into the season. guess what? i was right.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I believe I have been perfectly honest with you - is it possible that, just as you did last night with Southern, that you are just seeing something that isn't there or perhaps not seeing something that is?

It's possible, but unlikely. You veered off course initially, seemingly claiming that Vernon Davis' success in some way indicates that Smith is a good QB. While doing so, you accused me of veering off course. From that point on, you haven't said anything substantive that relates to the discussion. You have said I am irrational and losing my mind. You have said I offered opinions disguised as questions. You have said I have some serious problems.

Now that's all fine. But again, be honest about weaseling out of supporting your claims, as you persist in doing. You said everyone except Crabtree has improved. You said that others have had success while Crabtree has not. Please explain those positions. I don't see much improvement among any of our WRs, or much success beyond what Crabtree has had. Iguana made a good point about Bryant. Again, that's one guy with success, though certainly not improvement. So where's the rest of the success, and where is the improvement? Or did you misspeak?

 

[MHSL82]

What about that post lacked reason? You said Crabtree is the only guy not to improve with Smith. So who has improved? That, at least, should be a simple question.

I won't say Davis improved because of Smith, but he was more productive with Smith than Troy or Shaun Hill (or JTO for that matter). But some of that is because of the maturation of Davis independant of Smith/Davis's obvious chemistry. But are we just talking about receivers here? I assume Morgan is better than he was before, but I again can't say that was because of Smith (or all that great of improvement).

 

[numone9er]

What do you guys think about Brandon Jacobs? He's exactly the type of RB we need. He would probably come cheap as well...

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

What do you guys think about Brandon Jacobs? He's exactly the type of RB we need. He would probably come cheap as well...

I dont like him at all. From the recent Giant games that I've seen, he seems to get stuffed on short yardages a pretty good amount of the time even though it should be his strength. On top of that he is a dumbass, he's old, not a threat as a catcher, and has appeared to have slowed down quite a bit even though he was never all that good to begin with.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I won't say Davis improved because of Smith, but he was more productive with Smith than Troy or Shaun Hill (or JTO for that matter). But some of that is because of the maturation of Davis independant of Smith/Davis's obvious chemistry. But are we just talking about receivers here? I assume Morgan is better than he was before, but I again can't say that was because of Smith (or all that great of improvement).

I'm not arguing that Smith is worse than Troy or Hill. Those guys aren't NFL starters, while Alex is a middle-of-the-road starter. Troy might not even be an NFL-caliber player. Alex is a solid starter who can operate effectively within a tight framework. My question is can he do more than that? If he can't, we will always be limited on offense.

And having acknowledged that Alex is better, it's not like Davis disappeared playing with those guys. In Hill's five full games in 2009, (not breaking down Houston at all cause I don't want to look at the play-by-play and I don't like comparing halves; I'll concede that almost all of that was Smith, though), Davis averaged 52.4 YPG and 0.6 TDs. In Smith's ten full games that year, Davis averaged 61 yards and 0.7 TDs. In five full games with Troy in 2010, Davis averaged 50.4 YPG and 0.2 TDs. In ten full games with Smith, he averaged 59.2 YPG and 0.6 TDs. With Troy it was feast or famine, as Davis posted his highest yardage of the year against GB and fourth-highest against St. Louis, and his lowest and third-lowest against TB and Denver, respectively.

If anything, I think this lends credence to the fact that Davis can be effective with just about anyone at QB, as he was on pace to break 800 yards with either of those other guys. His numbers would suffer, but he'd still get it done because he is very difficult to stop and because he has explosive ability. Crabtree is not in Davis' class. I freely acknowledge that.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I dont like him at all. From the recent Giant games that I've seen, he seems to get stuffed on short yardages a pretty good amount of the time even though it should be his strength. On top of that he is a dumbass, he's old, not a threat as a catcher, and has appeared to have slowed down quite a bit even though he was never all that good to begin with.

I tend to agree. He occasionally flashes his remarkable power, but not nearly often enough. For a big guy, he's a pretty soft player. I absolutely loved it when he dared the Niners to hit him high in the championship game. He backed that talk up with five rushes for 13 yards.

 

[imac_21]

So how is it that Vernon Davis became a record tying, pro-bowl, elite TE with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree can't seem to get even remotely close to that level.

How is it that Joshua Morgan is able to improve each year with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree has yet to do the same?

Honest questions - I'm not taking one side over the other but I have always believed the above and other evidence has always shown that Crabtree is more to much more the problem in the Smith/Crabtree relationship.

I think it is quite possible that both would flourish being apart from one another.

Crabtree hasn't improved each year? His catches and yards have gone up each year. He had less TDs this year than last year, but everything else has improved.

 

[imac_21]

everything gets twisted around here anyways.

crabtree didn't have a big impact on our season. are u gonna tell me smith didn't? vincent jackson would actually get open and make plays like vernon did.

Crabtree had just as much impact as Smith did. How many QBs in the league would have improved our offense last year? 10? 15?

Our WRS (it's plural) held us back. So did our QB. Your outright refusal to acknowledge this is offensive.

 

[imac_21]

I'll also point out that Alex "turned the corner" the same time Crabtree joined the team.

The implication that Crabtree is not an NFL calibre WR is offensive. Iguana's statement earlier that Crabtree failed to perform to the level of a #4 WR (yet still put up 72/84/2 as the second option in the passing game) suggests that Alex Smith must be the best QB ever to get that kind of production out of a player that allegedly shouldn't be in the league.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Crabtree had just as much impact as Smith did. How many QBs in the league would have improved our offense last year? 10? 15?

Our WRS (it's plural) held us back. So did our QB. Your outright refusal to acknowledge this is offensive.

did smith hold us back when we needed a lead late it games? our wr's rarely stepped up.

sure there would be a few qb's that can replace smith and do what he did. how many can go toe to toe with brees tho? smith also performed when we opened up the offense.

hard to know now, but the offense looked a lot better when morgan was the #1 option. the eagles and bucs game our offense was clicking when we were trying to score.

i really can't believe you're defending crabtree just to bash smith. i hate bringing up bleacher report, but i seen a ranking of right guards and snyder was 32. crabtree would be 32 i'm guessing if we ranked starting wr's. i should say #1 wr's

 

[Bemular]

Crabtree hasn't improved each year? His catches and yards have gone up each year. He had less TDs this year than last year, but everything else has improved.

Everything else?

So you are saying that statistics are the only way to measure all improvement for a WR and therefore it is your argument that Michael Crabtree has improved his chemistry, his reliability and is today a better tactical WR than he was in 2009 because the statistics say so.

Brilliant! - You win!

 

[imac_21]

did smith hold us back when we needed a lead late it games? our wr's rarely stepped up.

sure there would be a few qb's that can replace smith and do what he did. how many can go toe to toe with brees tho? smith also performed when we opened up the offense.

hard to know now, but the offense looked a lot better when morgan was the #1 option. the eagles and bucs game our offense was clicking when we were trying to score.

i really can't believe you're defending crabtree just to bash smith. i hate bringing up bleacher report, but i seen a ranking of right guards and snyder was 32. crabtree would be 32 i'm guessing if we ranked starting wr's. i should say #1 wr's

I can't believe you're citing Bleacher Report.

Did Smith step up in the NFC Championship game? We probably could have used some production there.

I know, I know, Crabtree couldn't get open blah blah blah. But Davis only caught 3 balls. Two were huge plays, but it isn't as if Smith was lighting it up to him.


The one catch Crabtree had was a horribly thrown ball that he had to jump to catch and gave him no chance to get the first down. Smith threw some horrible balls that game.

I can't believe you're treating Smith like the greatest QB ever to justify your hatred of Crabtree.

Let's see about a list of QBs that could have replaced Smith. . .

Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Romo, Vick, Stafford, Manning, Rivers, Schaub, Roethlisberger. . . . and this doesn't include guys like Cutler and Freeman who are much more skilled QBs but have other flaws.