Offseason thread, WR hunt, Cap Space now $4.768M not counting JJ and Jacobs

[Flyingiguana]

Cap space can be created. Brees cap number can be limited in 2012 as well.

ya but at the time it looked like the saints would only use the normal franchise tag. so we would have to give brees a big number or the saints would most likely match it. i'm not sure if we could restructure enough contracts and make the needed upgrades. it also could leave us very thin at corner.

with our current talent at wr it would be like sending brees to a gun fight with a sling shot

 

[imac_21]

ya but at the time it looked like the saints would only use the normal franchise tag. so we would have to give brees a big number or the saints would most likely match it. i'm not sure if we could restructure enough contracts and make the needed upgrades. it also could leave us very thin at corner.

with our current talent at wr it would be like sending brees to a gun fight with a sling shot

One could simply reverse your last sentence and say that signing a top WR with Alex Smith at QB is pointless. At least a sling shot is a weapon. You'd be sending Vincent Jackson into a gun fight with a paper airplane.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

the concerns i have about crabtree are concerns that were before he was in the nfl. smith has never had anything close to an elite reciever. antonio bryant was by far the best and he dropped out of the league fairly quickly.

the physical limitations of crabtree are my concerns. even jerry rice hit it on the head. but yet, u guys can't see it. the same guys who bashed me when i wanted drew brees after his third season. please keep it up.

Two thoughts on this gem:

1) What do you consider Vernon Davis? Perhaps you mean Smith has never had an elite WIDE receiver?

2) Crabtree has never had an elite QB. Again, you have a blatant double standard. All of the excuses you make for Smith also apply to Crabtree.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Those guys are Special Teamers. They're ILB in the same sense that Joe Hastings and Brett Swain were WRs. Or Colin Jones a safety. Brian Jennings a TE.

Tavares Gooden is a solid backup so far as I know. He had 12 starts for Baltimore in 2009. Any backup ILB will be primarily a STs guy.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

In the big picture what is known between St. Louis and here is that he has improved from being cut by the Rams to more than admirably backing up perhaps the best ILB in the game today.

The only thing the Rams film will provide any GM is contrast and insight to what Grant has improved upon and where he may still need to improve. But I would be surprised if any team interested in Grant is interested in him as a back-up.

I understand the point you are making about the other 7th rounders, but Grant was drafted in '08 - I would hate to have to wait another 4 years to have what it appears we may have right now.

I would just about guarantee that any team considering Grant is watching footage of his time in St. Louis. They would be foolish not to, even if it is only to learn how to use him correctly.

As for 7th rounder, my point was that people dismiss the picks as worthless. I've done that a fair bit myself. But we have made good use of those picks recently, adding a starter and several key backups over the past few years. Of our last seven 7th round picks, five are still on the roster (granted Grant left and then returned). One is a starter and two are valuable backups. One is a good - potentially very good - STs contributor. I'm just saying the pick is worth something, even if it's not much, and the Niners might just be trying to get another developmental player out of this whole transaction.

 

[Bemular]

Two thoughts on this gem:

1) What do you consider Vernon Davis? Perhaps you mean Smith has never had an elite WIDE receiver?

2) Crabtree has never had an elite QB. Again, you have a blatant double standard. All of the excuses you make for Smith also apply to Crabtree.

So how is it that Vernon Davis became a record tying, pro-bowl, elite TE with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree can't seem to get even remotely close to that level.

How is it that Joshua Morgan is able to improve each year with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree has yet to do the same?

Honest questions - I'm not taking one side over the other but I have always believed the above and other evidence has always shown that Crabtree is more to much more the problem in the Smith/Crabtree relationship.

I think it is quite possible that both would flourish being apart from one another.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

what was working in the first half wasn't used in the 2nd. we got into 3rd and longs basically every drive which plays directly into the giants strengths. they adjusted their coverage to take out vernon and crabtree couldn't take advantage of the attention given to vernon. neither smith nor eli played well and given the weather conditions that was to be expected.

looking at earlier in the season, when we opened up the offense smith usually performed well. crabtree outside of a couple plays late in the year never stepped up. usually in crunch time crabtree was nowhere to be found.

Other than two throws and one scramble, Smith played poorly. Hell, with those plays he played poorly. Take them away and he was downright awful.

When we opened up the offense, we still didn't get jack shit done on third down until we absolutely needed to score. When Smith needed to make throws to win the game, he often did. My problem is that when he doesn't need to make them (when he's preserving a lead or there's ample time left in a close game), and sometimes when he did, he either misses or he doesn't even try. It will be extremely difficult to replicate this year's success if that doesn't change.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

i would never choose smith over brees. i would take brees over any qb in the league. we dont have the cap space for brees.

That's false and you know it. We might have to make sacrifices we don't want to, but we definitely have the cap space.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

So how is it that Vernon Davis became a record tying, pro-bowl, elite TE with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree can't seem to get even remotely close to that level.

How is it that Joshua Morgan is able to improve each year with Alex Smith at QB, but Crabtree has yet to do the same?

Honest questions - I'm not taking one side over the other but I have always believed the above and other evidence has always shown that Crabtree is more to much more the problem in the Smith/Crabtree relationship.

I think it is quite possible that both would flourish being apart from one another.

Vernon Davis is an elite talent. He is a physical mismatch who cannot be covered by one player, and often cannot be covered by two. He can get wide open. Players like that are extremely rare. In today's NFL, I'd say only Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are comparable in terms of size-speed-strength ratio at the receiving positions. It is unrealistic to expect to have more than one player like that on a roster.

As for Morgan, he has improved quite a bit. But I don't see how that supports the idea that Smith is a great or even good QB. Any receiver, and especially a sixth round receiver, would be expected to improve in his first four years in the league. Morgan has done so as anticipated. I am also somewhat skeptical about Morgan's degree of improvement. This year he was starting to look pretty good, but he also went down after two big games, following three very quiet games. Was that a sign that he was catching on, or was it a relatively random spike in production? I don't think we can say at this point.

A comparison to Crabtree here doesn't say as much about the QB as it does about the players themselves. Crabtree was surprisingly effective as a rookie, given the point at which he entered the league. His second year wasn't a good one, and it's even arguable he regressed. I can't say why that was. But there's little doubt that, once healthy, he improved this year.

I agree that both would look better with a better WR or QB, respectively.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Iguana, seriously: which WR does Smith compare to and why? Honest question.

 

[Bemular]

I would just about guarantee that any team considering Grant is watching footage of his time in St. Louis. They would be foolish not to, even if it is only to learn how to use him correctly.

As for 7th rounder, my point was that people dismiss the picks as worthless. I've done that a fair bit myself. But we have made good use of those picks recently, adding a starter and several key backups over the past few years. Of our last seven 7th round picks, five are still on the roster (granted Grant left and then returned). One is a starter and two are valuable backups. One is a good - potentially very good - STs contributor. I'm just saying the pick is worth something, even if it's not much, and the Niners might just be trying to get another developmental player out of this whole transaction.

I'm equally as positive all potential suitors for Grant will view his tape from his days in St. Louis, I'm just suggesting it will not mean as much as you seemed to indicate by saying, ...his film from those days got him to the street.

To your comment regarding for the 7th round draft pick. I have never dismissed any pick as all picks have value. Right now I would consider Grant to have much more value than the round in which he was drafted in 2008.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I'm equally as positive all potential suitors for Grant will view his tape from his days in St. Louis, I'm just suggesting it will not mean as much as you seemed to indicate by saying, ...his film from those days got him to the street.

To your comment regarding for the 7th round draft pick. I have never dismissed any pick as all picks have value. Right now I would consider Grant to have much more value than the round in which he was drafted in 2008.

I would agree. But he also has more value to most other teams than he does to us as we have two world-class ILBs under contract for at least two more years. In that case, we can either keep him for one more year at $700,000 more than our current offer, or we can have a chance to match another offer and a tolerable consolation prize if we don't. In a perfect world, we'd tender him at the second round level and trade him for that, or a 3rd or 4th rounder. That's probably not realistic, though.

As far as saying 7th round picks have value, that was not directed at you in particular, but in general. Many around here are dismissive of late picks. I have often been, too. But we've taken advantage of those picks of late.

 

[Flyingiguana]

One could simply reverse your last sentence and say that signing a top WR with Alex Smith at QB is pointless. At least a sling shot is a weapon. You'd be sending Vincent Jackson into a gun fight with a paper airplane.

everything gets twisted around here anyways.

crabtree didn't have a big impact on our season. are u gonna tell me smith didn't? vincent jackson would actually get open and make plays like vernon did.

 

[Bemular]

Vernon Davis is an elite talent. He is a physical mismatch who cannot be covered by one player, and often cannot be covered by two. He can get wide open. Players like that are extremely rare. In today's NFL, I'd say only Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are comparable in terms of size-speed-strength ratio at the receiving positions. It is unrealistic to expect to have more than one player like that on a roster.

As for Morgan, he has improved quite a bit. But I don't see how that supports the idea that Smith is a great or even good QB. Any receiver, and especially a sixth round receiver, would be expected to improve in his first four years in the league. Morgan has done so as anticipated. I am also somewhat skeptical about Morgan's degree of improvement. This year he was starting to look pretty good, but he also went down after two big games, following three very quiet games. Was that a sign that he was catching on, or was it a relatively random spike in production? I don't think we can say at this point.

A comparison to Crabtree here doesn't say as much about the QB as it does about the players themselves. Crabtree was surprisingly effective as a rookie, given the point at which he entered the league. His second year wasn't a good one, and it's even arguable he regressed. I can't say why that was. But there's little doubt that, once healthy, he improved this year.

I agree that both would look better with a better WR or QB, respectively.

Earlier you wrote:

"All of the excuses you make for Smith also apply to Crabtree."

So are you now saying that rule applies only to the Crabtree/Smith relationship and only applies to the negative and thus any positives that our other receivers have experienced with Smith as our QB are due mostly if not entirely to their own talents and Smith has nothing to do with those positives?

If that is what you are claiming I would have to vehemently disagree. If that is not what you are saying then you will have to concede that Smith is equally as responsible (in a relative manner of speaking) for the success of our other receivers as he is for the failure of Crabtree.

And when compared on that level it would seem that the only receiver thus far not able to improve with Smith as our QB is Crabtree. Meaning that Crabtree is more likely to be Smith's problem than the other way around.

Again, I have no skin in this argument but it does seem as if you are moving the goal posts a little. I'm not trying to change your mind but perhaps just give you a different point of view to consider.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Iguana, seriously: which WR does Smith compare to and why? Honest question.

there isnt any. there isn't even a qb that compares. a new offense each year, guy getting fired midseason for not calling plays in the red zone, lost season and a half from a shoulder injury.

:preggers: <-- the crabtree smiley

 

[Crimsoncrew]

everything gets twisted around here anyways.

crabtree didn't have a big impact on our season. are u gonna tell me smith didn't? vincent jackson would actually get open and make plays like vernon did.

You're right. He just led the team in receptions and receiving yards while accounting for 27% of our passing yards and 22% of our TDs. In fact, he had three fewer yards and as many TDs as all of our other receivers COMBINED. His role was pretty much meaningless.

Vincent Jackson is 6'5", 240 pounds, runs the 40 in 4.46, and has a 39" vertical. He's not quite in Calvin and Andre's league, but he's right up there physically. As far as I can tell, your argument remains that Smith needs superior physical talent at every position before we can even evaluate him fairly. That's ridiculous.

Also, Jackson is at his best working the deep sideline. That is, without a doubt, Smith's weakest area on the field to throw to. Why should we have faith in Smith to get the ball to Jackson?

 

[Bemular]

I would agree. But he also has more value to most other teams than he does to us as we have two world-class ILBs under contract for at least two more years. In that case, we can either keep him for one more year at $700,000 more than our current offer, or we can have a chance to match another offer and a tolerable consolation prize if we don't. In a perfect world, we'd tender him at the second round level and trade him for that, or a 3rd or 4th rounder. That's probably not realistic, though.

As far as saying 7th round picks have value, that was not directed at you in particular, but in general. Many around here are dismissive of late picks. I have often been, too. But we've taken advantage of those picks of late.

I agree plenty enough with this point of view.

 

[Flyingiguana]

You're right. He just led the team in receptions and receiving yards while accounting for 27% of our passing yards and 22% of our TDs. In fact, he had three fewer yards and as many TDs as all of our other receivers COMBINED. His role was pretty much meaningless.

Vincent Jackson is 6'5", 240 pounds, runs the 40 in 4.46, and has a 39" vertical. He's not quite in Calvin and Andre's league, but he's right up there physically. As far as I can tell, your argument remains that Smith needs superior physical talent at every position before we can even evaluate him fairly. That's ridiculous.

Also, Jackson is at his best working the deep sideline. That is, without a doubt, Smith's weakest area on the field to throw to. Why should we have faith in Smith to get the ball to Jackson?

we don't need superior talent we need actual talent.

goodwin/snyder is not very good and definately could use an upgrade at least at guard. it would help the run game and the pass equally

our wr's are horrible, losing edwards and morgan was a major blow. i don't think i have seen one person that claims qb is a bigger issue on the offense.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Earlier you wrote:

"All of the excuses you make for Smith also apply to Crabtree."

So are you now saying that rule applies only to the Crabtree/Smith relationship and only applies to the negative and thus any positives that our other receivers have experienced with Smith as our QB are due mostly if not entirely to their own talents and Smith has nothing to do with those positives?

Now we're discussing two different things. On the one hand, we're evaluating Smith as an NFL quarterback. On that scale, he has been disappointing throughout his career and is presently an average or very slightly above average starting QB. On the other hand, we're evaluating what his receivers have done. Of course Smith plays a role in Davis' success. He throws the ball to Davis. But Davis gets open constantly, making Smith's job much easier. He is also nearly unstoppable running the deep seam. That happens to be one of the balls that Smith throws very well.

Crabtree is not a great receiver. He does not have the physical tools to get open the way Davis does, and he has not yet developed enough of a manufactured skill set (routes, reliable hands, rapport with his QB) to get very open on a regular basis. I think he has been disappointing. But he has not been nearly as bad as Iguana would make him out to be (for instance, by comparing him to a QB who has a career rating of 55.2 and a 2-11 record). And because Smith is not very good at throwing to the sidelines (long, short, or just plain off) or throwing the slant (regularly thrown high), Crabtree is hurt by Smith's weaknesses just as Davis is helped by Smith's strengths. If Crabtree were a great receiver, I'm sure he could put up pretty good numbers with Smith at QB. That doesn't and wouldn't make Smith a better QB or a good QB.

If that is what you are claiming I would have to vehemently disagree. If that is not what you are saying then you will have to concede that Smith is equally as responsible (in a relative manner of speaking) for the success of our other receivers as he is for the failure of Crabtree.

What other receivers? What receiver, other than Vernon Davis, have succeeded with Smith at QB? The next guy on that list is Michael Crabtree. His last two seasons have been the most successful any WR has had playing with Smith.

And when compared on that level it would seem that the only receiver thus far not able to improve with Smith as our QB is Crabtree. Meaning that Crabtree is more likely to be Smith's problem than the other way around.

Who has improved? I'm not even sure Walker has really improved, at least statistically. His improvement effectively consists of moving into the starting lineup in his second season and thus getting more opportunities. His improvement between his second and third year was fairly modest and frankly comparable to Crabtree's improvement this year. This year isn't much of a sample size for Morgan, but it extrapolates out to an improvement of six more yards and one more TD.

Who else has improved? Where are all these WRs that are apparently lighting it up? Did Ted Ginn improve? Did Jason Hill improve? Did Arnaz Battle improve? Did Antonio Bryant improve? How can you possibly argue that Crabtree is the only receiver not to improve with Smith at QB?

Again, I have no skin in this argument but it does seem as if you are moving the goal posts a little. I'm not trying to change your mind but perhaps just give you a different point of view to consider.

Again, I'm not saying Smith is so terrible that no one could have success with him at QB. I'm saying he's not currently good enough to be successful with average NFL talent supporting him. Those are different arguments, and if anyone is moving the goal posts, it's you.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

there isnt any. there isn't even a qb that compares. a new offense each year, guy getting fired midseason for not calling plays in the red zone, lost season and a half from a shoulder injury.

:preggers: <-- the crabtree smiley

With the exception of losing a year and a half due to injury, this is all true of Crabtree as well. Changing offenses admittedly should hurt a QB more than a WR, but it's not as if a WR is immune to that stuff. Again, you have a completely blatant double standard under which you give Smith a pass for all sort of things that also apply to Crabtree.

Your Ken Dorsey comparison for Crabtree had nothing to do with external circumstances. You were comparing them as players. So make a similar comparison for Smith. Right now, regardless of his history, which WR does Smith compare to in terms of his abilities and upside?