My eat crow thread

[vancelot23]

140 characters, and it's not easy.

 

[Servo]

I suggest re-reading my post. You missed the entire point. In everything. In referencing history and evidently with the Kerry Collins reference as well.

I didn't miss your point it's just not a very good one. You're comparing a hail mary in a blow out to a guy getting a TD run when the defense A). knows Ced is going to run it and B). the outcome of the game is totally riding on the outcome of that play. You seem like a pretty bright guy. You should know that's not a valid comparison.

Further you reference Ced as having a poor history despite being productive in his three seasons as a Bengal. Doug made a good point when he brought up Ced's fumbling issues. Discounting a big play and a pretty decent history as a RB that you just alluded to does not = good argument. Ced played well. He ran hard, didnt fumble and produced despite being keyed on and running behing a suspect O-line. The bengals played well yesterday (or as well as we could expect them to). Just admit it already...

 

[DanBengalfan]

Anyone that can get people to empathize with Mike Brown deserves a serious enema.

I think it's a little late for Carson to come back, unless Dalton or Grad get hurt, then maybe, but I seriously doubt Carson wants to touch this offense with a ten foot poll, he probably saw that hit on Dalton, turned to his bro and said, "what did I tell you? they can't even protect him for one damn game!"

 

[flamingrey]

I didn't miss your point it's just not a very good one. You're comparing a hail mary in a blow out to a guy getting a TD run when the defense A). knows Ced is going to run it and B). the outcome of the game is totally riding on the outcome of that play. You seem like a pretty bright guy. You should know that's not a valid comparison.

Further you reference Ced as having a poor history despite being productive in his three seasons as a Bengal. Doug made a good point when he brought up Ced's fumbling issues. Discounting a big play and a pretty decent history as a RB that you just alluded to does not = good argument. Ced played well. He ran hard, didnt fumble and produced despite being keyed on and running behing a suspect O-line. The bengals played well yesterday (or as well as we could expect them to). Just admit it already...

1) I said hail mary at the end of the first half. It happened in a game last night, don't recall which. A defender got an interception. Now despite it being well within game play, it's an empty stat. That was the point of that comparison.

2) I did say Benson sucked the first year (I was referring to his first full season with the Bengals). Meh. I could agree he played very well the first half or so of the season. The last 5-6 games, not so much (though he had a great playoff game). And I believe he sucked last season. Bad.

And I'm not sure which "history" you think I alluded to. The only "history" I talked about was the stat book that will hold those yards and that TD. In the context of this argument though, that means nothing to me.

There's nothing to admit here. I can take solace in the fact that I'm not alone in my belief that yesterday Benson was average at best.

 

[Servo]

I misread your history comment...I will say though that most big running plays happen the same way that Ced's did (i.e. right play call, right time, O-line opens a big hole and the RB exploits it). It's not like every 40+ yard TD run is some herculean, Barry Sanders/Bo Jackson type run. Most the time it's just sticking to the run game till they get that situation and the RB busts it...I would bet if you went through each 100+ yard rusher from yesterday and omit their big play most their #'s would probably go down to about 3-4 yards a lug.

 

[cincygrad]

Okay, regardless of Benson's abilities or lack thereof...... Do some of you guys really believe that Brian Leonard is a starting running back? Really?

 

[flamingrey]

I misread your history comment...I will say though that most big running plays happen the same way that Ced's did (i.e. right play call, right time, O-line opens a big hole and the RB exploits it). It's not like every 40+ yard TD run is some herculean, Barry Sanders/Bo Jackson type run. Most the time it's just sticking to the run game till they get that situation and the RB busts it...I would bet if you went through each 100+ yard rusher from yesterday and omit their big play most their #'s would probably go down to about 3-4 yards a lug.

I'm not denying any of that. I just believe Benson had a very average game on Sunday, no more no less, and that last run over-inflated his value, for the lack of a better word.

Benson as a player, don't care for him. He's below average at catching the ball out of the backfield which is important in today's NFL. Average blocker (Leonard is better than him) especially for his size. He's not quick or elusive, another nice quality to have these days with offenses moving so fast. The league in general is moving in another direction with RB's. The Bengals have not caught on. Guys with Benson's mauling "qualities" really aren't a commodity any more (unless they come with pass catching ability). We should have moved in a different direction this offseason.

 

[bengaldoug]

Okay, regardless of Benson's abilities or lack thereof...... Do some of you guys really believe that Brian Leonard is a starting running back? Really?

He is definitely a starting third down back....no more and no less.....

 

[Cincyfan78]

Benson had a very good 2009. 300+ carries, 1200+ yards, and only 1 fumble, and 4.2 YPC.

2010 he regressed. Some of that is probably due to the fact that the emphasis was on the passing game. Hard to get into a groove when you don't get the ball. Despite playing in 3 more games in 2010 he only had 19 more carries. A games worth. That should show where the emphasis on the offense was.

Benson had an "OK" day up until the run. I don't think you can compare a hail mary to Bensons run because in a hail mary attempt, the offense is at the disadvantage. Usually behind. In this case, the offense was in the advantage and trying to drain out the clock. The defense isn't simply trying to prevent a long pass play or TD, but they actually have to attack the line of scrimmage and stop the offense from getting a first down.

In a run first mentality, often times the RB is going to have a very pedestrian stat line unless they break a few long ones. The defense was selling out against the run after the 1st qtr on. If the Bengals stick with the run, and the Browns know this and are willing to let Gradkowski beat them, then it's going to be hard for the RB to get good YPC. Each week it's going to be like this because each defense knows the Bengals want to run the ball. The defenses are going to sell out against the run, and force Dalton to beat them. Until he does with any consistency, Ced is going to have a hard time getting good YPC. If Dalton can take advantage enough, the defenses will be forced to stretch back, leaving more room for Benson to run, and thus shoud (SHOULD) correlate into better YPC.

We'll see. But if the passing game doesn't start getting down field more, and forcing the defense to stretch, then it's not going to matter who the RB is on this team...they are going to see a lot of 8 and 9 in the box. That along makes for a tough break when looking at YPC.

 

[flamingrey]

Agree with most of what you said.

The emphasis was on run last year, but it was hard to stick with it when we were falling behind so early and so often. I can't believe you don't remember all those run, run, pass on 3rd and very long drives.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Agreed, I think they would have run the ball more if they would have had leads. I don't doubt that one at all.

However, in 2009, you have to remember how often this team had to throw the ball in the 2nd half of games to play catchup and have those 4 or 5 come from behind wins.

2010 Pass plays called were roughly 60% compared to a 50/50 ratio in 2009 (bengals.com stats on Passing attempts vs Run attempts - and figuring that most of Palmers 30+ rush attempts were mostly scrambles from broken pass plays).


But I digress....because as you stated, or implied, with the lead, that team runs the ball more in the 4th qtr. So we can agree on something! lol

 

[jwil007]

I dont mind eating crow hell I have been wrong many of times......

I want them to beat Denver but now since Denver lost they will play with more fire..I hope we step up but will not be shocked if we lose this 1....

We need to score 1st score fast and play physical defense and "Take Their Breath Away"

 

[Restore the Roar]

I dont mind eating crow hell I have been wrong many of times......

I want them to beat Denver but now since Denver lost they will play with more fire..I hope we step up but will not be shocked if we lose this 1....

We need to score 1st score fast and play physical defense and "Take Their Breath Away"

I think we find out a lot about our pass D. Denver showed no interest in running the ball last night.

 

[BKBroiler9000]

I'm not denying any of that. I just believe Benson had a very average game on Sunday, no more no less, and that last run over-inflated his value, for the lack of a better word.

Benson as a player, don't care for him. He's below average at catching the ball out of the backfield which is important in today's NFL. Average blocker (Leonard is better than him) especially for his size. He's not quick or elusive, another nice quality to have these days with offenses moving so fast. The league in general is moving in another direction with RB's. The Bengals have not caught on. Guys with Benson's mauling "qualities" really aren't a commodity any more (unless they come with pass catching ability). We should have moved in a different direction this offseason.

I think this is a very good point. Look at some of the top RB's in the league right now, Peterson, Chris Johnson, Charles, Ray Rice. 3 of these guys are part of the new wave of NFL backs...lightning fast, agile, cut back runners who are more on the smallish side. All of which are threats in the passing game out of the backfield. The exception is Peterson, the only back who blends both the old style with the new...because he is a freakish talent. Big, strong, will truck through defenders...but also blazing fast, elusive, and serviceable out of the backfield. This is the direction the league is going, away from the one-dimensional north-south runners. The Steven Jacksons, Larry Johnsons and Cedric Bensons of the world are a a dying breed.

 

[Restore the Roar]

If you take away every running backs big run, all their numbers look pedestrian. To ignore that fact is ignorant at best.

Just wondering, is 21 carries for 103 yards pedestrian. Just wondering where the bar is for any future Benson debates

 

[DanBengalfan]

He is definitely a starting third down back....no more and no less.....

He can simply be used more, this is the w/c offense after all. Obviously not a bowling ball type rb.

 

[TrinDaddy]

I don't recall a single play where Leon was burnt. All those plays you see him at the edge of the screen with a receiver WIDE open, he was trying to recover for someone elses screw up.

Good call. I actually went back and looked, it was Nelson getting burnt by Massaquoi in the 2nd that I was specifically thinking of. That and a few mismatch plays in which Watson came over the middle and Hall was left to cover him alone during zone coverage. That's not really his fault though considering he should have some underneath linebacker or a DE dropback for help if they're trying to prevent it.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Yeah, the Browns did a really good job on their two big plays of using the aggressive nature of the defense against them. The rollout and throw across the field play was really nice, but the Safety on that side of the field needs to remember that he's responsible for THAT side of the field, and not worry about the other side. I know it's nature to chase the ball and want to make sure that you are in position to help make a tackle if that play does go to the right...but when you are in charge of the left side of the back end of the secondary...you have to stay put and trust the other guys on the other side of the field to do their job and make the play.