My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[Jordan23]

MJ had a losing record too

Lost more times than he won.

Why do people insist on elevating Finals record?

MJ’s finals opponents were extremely weak compared to LeBron’s

Taking a team to the Finals is not a negative

Cause he battled through the tough times with no help at all and kept improving and went on to win those titles without needing to leave the bulls and join Clyde or join Barkley, or go join Malone and Stockton. He had a different drive to win then todays players do. That alone is a big reason he is the goat along with everything else. Today’s players don’t have that. If they tried to get Jordan back then to take rest games off he would have tore them a new asshole. He wasn’t sitting for anything. These debates are stupid cause it goes a lot further than oh he averaged this many rebounds and he played for this long,

 

[tlance]

Oh NOW the number of rings matters to you, LMAO. Bron slurpers are great at double talk.

If losing to stacked teams is acceptable as long as you put up great stats and make the series competitive, then West>LeBron by your logic.

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

 

[tlance]

Cause he battled through the tough times with no help at all and kept improving and went on to win those titles without needing to leave the bulls and join Clyde or join Barkley, or go join Malone and Stockton. He had a different drive to win then todays players do. That alone is a big reason he is the goat along with everything else. Today’s players don’t have that. If they tried to get Jordan back then to take rest games off he would have tore them a new asshole. He wasn’t sitting for anything. These debates are stupid cause it goes a lot further than oh he averaged this many rebounds and he played for this long,

That is dishonest.

1st, the Bulls were built to contender level organically by the time MJ was in his 6th season.

2nd free agency wasn’t the same back then. Much less player movement because the rules gave tremendous advantages to the team that had the player under contract.

If Jordan had the opportunity to leave on free agency with similar rules to what there were in the 2000s and was drafted to team like Cleveland, he was out the door 100%.

 

[Jordan23]

That is dishonest.

1st, the Bulls were built to contender level organically by the time MJ was in his 6th season.

2nd free agency wasn’t the same back then. Much less player movement because the rules gave tremendous advantages to the team that had the player under contract.

If Jordan had the opportunity to leave on free agency with similar rules to what there were in the 2000s and was drafted to team like Cleveland, he was out the door 100%.

Jordan had a different Mind set, he wasn’t one who would take the easy way out. You are lost or don’t know MJ at all if you think he leaves. He was drafted to a team like the Cavs. The bulls were trash

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

Firstly, I've already picked apart the competition excuse. Secondly, it's equally if not more true that LeBron didn't face anyone good in the East from 2011 to 2018, which is the biggest reason he kept getting back. The Finals was the only time he faced a legitimate opponent in most of those years.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The Suns didn't "just have Barkley"

Even with MJ averaging 41 PPG in the series and outscoring every Sun by at least 13 PPG, the Suns and Bulls still scored the same total points cumulatively.

So if anything, Barkley was getting more from his mates than Jordan was.

Perhaps if you were following the conversation you would note the question was how many hall of famers they had.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

T


To be fair Kemp would smoke today’s players. Gar Payton also would be tough yet.

Kemp was a freak athlete who would be limited in todays game. Conversely some players from today would struggle in his era.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

Its not remotely debatable.

 

[tlance]

Firstly, I've already picked apart the competition excuse. Secondly, it's equally if not more true that LeBron didn't face anyone good in the East from 2011 to 2018, which is the biggest reason he kept getting back. The Finals was the only time he faced a legitimate opponent in most of those years.

No, you really didn’t.

He kept getting back with different supporting casts because he was the dominant player in the league.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

No, you really didn’t.

He kept getting back with different supporting casts because he was the dominant player in the league.

What kills me is you're selling me that (as example) a Celtics team with KG, Pierce and Allen isnt good?

The east definitely had depth issues but there were still some squads.

 

[tlance]

What kills me is you're selling me that (as example) a Celtics team with KG, Pierce and Allen isnt good?

The east definitely had depth issues but there were still some squads.

Of that the Barkley Suns or the Sonics were anywhere near the teams Jordan beat.

Truth is none of the teams from the 90s were really all that great aside from the Bulls.

It was the era where the top players were spread out more than any other.

Those Knick teams better than the KG Pierce Celtics?

Nope.

 

[logic]

Jordan had a different Mind set, he wasn’t one who would take the easy way out. You are lost or don’t know MJ at all if you think he leaves. He was drafted to a team like the Cavs. The bulls were trash

Unrestricted free agency didn’t even exist until 1988 and then it was still rare. By then he had Pippen and the team didn’t stink.

 

[trojanfan12]

Firstly, I've already picked apart the competition excuse.

You give yourself too much credit.

Secondly, it's equally if not more true that LeBron didn't face anyone good in the East from 2011 to 2018, which is the biggest reason he kept getting back.

By the time MJ and the Bulls started winning titles...the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons runs were all over. MJ and his Bulls couldn't beat them in their primes. The talent was spread further around the league...the competition he faced in both the East and the finals was stronger than what Lebron has faced.

Ftr, I had Magic and MJ as a sort of 1a/1b in the GOAT convo for years and refused to move Lebron higher than 4th (had Kareem ahead of him too)...but Lebron has surpassed all 3 at this point. Hell, the man is 75 years old and still playing at an all star level. lol

 

[Stakesarehigh]

You give yourself too much credit.



By the time MJ and the Bulls started winning titles...the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons runs were all over. MJ and his Bulls couldn't beat them in their primes. The talent was spread further around the league...the competition he faced in both the East and the finals was stronger than what MJ faced.

I do think MJ faced an equal if not slightly stiffer East with Indiana and NY etc but as stated earlier a squad like Boston (even with the big 3 on the older side) or the D Rose Bulls are right there with them.

But anyone who tries to say MJ faced harder finals opponents are fucking crazy.

 

[trojanfan12]

I do think MJ faced an equal if not slightly stiffer East with Indiana and NY etc but as stated earlier a squad like Boston (even with the big 3 on the older side) or the D Rose Bulls are right there with them.

But anyone who tries to say MJ faced harder finals opponents are fucking crazy.

Yeah, hard to say on the bold. It was a very different league back then. It was the 90's and the games often looked like Wrestlemania...so from a skill standpoint, the teams MJ faced weren't close to what Lebron has faced...but the level of physicality Lebron faced wasn't close to what MJ faced.

 

[logic]

Yeah, hard to say on the bold. It was a very different league back then. It was the 90's and the games often looked like Wrestlemania...so from a skill standpoint, the teams MJ faced weren't close to what Lebron has faced...but the level of physicality Lebron faced wasn't close to what MJ faced.

The '90's NBA in one pic.

 

[Think McFly Think]

View attachment 386658
The '90's NBA in one pic.

Van Gundy clutching Alonzo’s leg is one of the best NBA still images ever, imo

 

[trojanfan12]

View attachment 386658
The '90's NBA in one pic.

Van Gundy wrapped around Mournings leg is one of the funniest things I've ever seen in a game...any sport. lol

 

[rmilia1]

Both MJ and LeBron are in a group of 5-6 players with an argument for 2nd if youre using actual data and fast based criteria

Kareem is the GOAT using actual data and facts by a wide wide margin

Now if you're judging GOAT based on eye test stuff then every answer is right because every person basis different things and prioritizes certain aspects of the game

So picking MJ is no different than picking LeBron which is no different than picking Magic who is no different than picking Russell etc etc

 

[logic]

View attachment 386658
The '90's NBA in one pic.

I loved how Alonzo just continued on and used him as a mop.