My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[logic]

Both MJ and LeBron are in a group of 5-6 players with an argument for 2nd if youre using actual data and fast based criteria

Kareem is the GOAT using actual data and facts by a wide wide margin

Now if you're judging GOAT based on eye test stuff then every answer is right because every person basis different things and prioritizes certain aspects of the game

So picking MJ is no different than picking LeBron which is no different than picking Magic who is no different than picking Russell etc etc

And if you consider Kareem was in a Bruce Lee movie & Airplane! the gap is even wider

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yeah, hard to say on the bold. It was a very different league back then. It was the 90's and the games often looked like Wrestlemania...so from a skill standpoint, the teams MJ faced weren't close to what Lebron has faced...but the level of physicality Lebron faced wasn't close to what MJ faced.

Agreed 100 percent.

 

[rmilia1]

And if you consider Kareem was in a Bruce Lee movie the gap is even wider

And Airplane

Can't forget that

 

[logic]

And Airplane

Can't forget that

just edited it before I saw this comment-lol

 

[tlance]

Both MJ and LeBron are in a group of 5-6 players with an argument for 2nd if youre using actual data and fast based criteria

Kareem is the GOAT using actual data and facts by a wide wide margin

Now if you're judging GOAT based on eye test stuff then every answer is right because every person basis different things and prioritizes certain aspects of the game

So picking MJ is no different than picking LeBron which is no different than picking Magic who is no different than picking Russell etc etc

No.

Kareem is in the conversation, but he is a clear 3rd for me.

He wasn’t the best player on many of those Laker championship teams. So his ring total can’t be counting the same as MJ or LeBron’s who always were the best player.

 

[Think McFly Think]

And Airplane

Can't forget that

“Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!”

 

[rmilia1]

No.

Kareem is in the conversation, but he is a clear 3rd for me.

He wasn’t the best player on many of those Laker championship teams. So his ring total can’t be counting the same as MJ or LeBron’s who always were the best player.

Well the player part of your opinion they're is eye test stuff

A person so inclined could easily say LeBron was not the best player on at least 1 of his 2 Heart title teams or the Lakers team that won a ring. Sane could be said about MJ in pretty much any of his 5 wins as he didn't lead the team in any statistical category other than scoring and was not their best defender

Ultimately the overtake stats, accolades and resume are what they are

And Kareems is superior to MJ buy a LOT and LeBron buy slightly less but still a lot

 

[trojanfan12]

No.

Kareem is in the conversation, but he is a clear 3rd for me.

He wasn’t the best player on many of those Laker championship teams. So his ring total can’t be counting the same as MJ or LeBron’s who always were the best player.

Yeah, it's interesting with Kareem. He all but won the title with the Bucks singlehandedly, but prior to Magic's arrival, he wasn't able to get the Lakers past the WCF.

He was the Lakers best player on the 1st and maaaaybe 2nd Showtime title team...but even then, on the first one, he was out with a sprained ankle for the game where they won the title.

 

[tlance]

Well the player part of your opinion they're is eye test stuff

A person so inclined could easily say LeBron was not the best player on at least 1 of his 2 Heart title teams or the Lakers team that won a ring. Sane could be said about MJ in pretty much any of his 5 wins as he didn't lead the team in any statistical category other than scoring and was not their best defender

Ultimately the overtake stats, accolades and resume are what they are

And Kareems is superior to MJ buy a LOT and LeBron buy slightly less but still a lot

No. They really couldn’t.

Because he won league MVP both years and even Wade clearly says LeBron was best player.

Not debateable.

 

[rmilia1]

No. They really couldn’t.

Because he won league MVP both years and even Wade clearly says LeBron was best player.

Not debateable.

Sure it's debatable

Its opinion

All opinion is debatable

If you're using MVP to say that makes it not debatable then you're agreeing that what a player accomplishes is his they should be judged

And Kareem has accomplished more than both MJ and LBJ

Since MJ it's the consensus GOAT by people who discuss this ad nauseum now let's look at him

Kareem was the better and more successful HS player. By a lot.

Kareem Was the better and more successful college player. By a lot

And even if you don't use those 2 pre NBA things when discussing greatest basketball player of all time Kareem still had

More MVPs than MJ
More All NBA team
More AS selections
More all defensive selections
Same amount of rings with now Finals appearances
More rebounding titles
More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

MJ has more steals ( even though steaps didn't become a stat til 1982 )
More scoring titles
More Finals MVPs

That's the comp

There's no way to look at that and think MJ was the better player. So that conclusion can only be tracked via eye test not resume

Which is fine. But it's no different than someone else using their eyes to reach a conclusion someone else is the GOAT

 

[tlance]

Some things are not debateable by rational people.

Wade says LeBron was the best player. He was very clearly the best player in the entire league at that time, like Kareem was in the early 70s.

People are free to have different opinions.

But opinions absolutely can be wrong.

Like when that Tatum dude came on here calling Jayson Tatum the GOAT. Or anything Dorian ever posts on here.

There are 3 players who deserve a legit spot in the convo for GOAT.

Kareem is one. There is a case to be made. But calling his resume clearly better doesn’t hold up. Because that viewpoint is based on accolades that aren’t always fairly calculated (LeBron should have 8 or 9 MVPs if they were) and again the titles. Kareem won 6, but only got Finals MVP 2 times.

Finals MVP almost always goes to the best player. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Kareem was definitely not the best player on the Lakers for the last 3 titles.

And college and high school should not be brought into this. Men against boys. Hard enough to evaluate NBA players going up against the best of the best.

 

[msgkings322]

Sure it's debatable

Its opinion

All opinion is debatable

If you're using MVP to say that makes it not debatable then you're agreeing that what a player accomplishes is his they should be judged

And Kareem has accomplished more than both MJ and LBJ

Since MJ it's the consensus GOAT by people who discuss this ad nauseum now let's look at him

Kareem was the better and more successful HS player. By a lot.

Kareem Was the better and more successful college player. By a lot

And even if you don't use those 2 pre NBA things when discussing greatest basketball player of all time Kareem still had

More MVPs than MJ
More All NBA team
More AS selections
More all defensive selections
Same amount of rings with now Finals appearances
More rebounding titles
More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

MJ has more steals ( even though steaps didn't become a stat til 1982 )
More scoring titles
More Finals MVPs

That's the comp

There's no way to look at that and think MJ was the better player. So that conclusion can only be tracked via eye test not resume

Which is fine. But it's no different than someone else using their eyes to reach a conclusion someone else is the GOAT

Not all opinions are 'debatable'

In my opinion Jordan Poole is the best player in the NBA today. Shall we debate this?

That said, I do think at the very top level you cannot definitively "prove" which player was more GOAT than the others. All 3 (LeBron, MJ, and Kareem) have good cases.

 

[trojanfan12]

No. They really couldn’t.

Because he won league MVP both years and even Wade clearly says LeBron was best player.

Not debateable.

Not to mention that losing in the finals that first year was the result of Lebron still deferring to D-Wade because he didn't want to just come in and take over. If memory serves, after that loss, Lebron and D-Wade talked about it and D-Wade basically told him to take the lead going forward because he's the better player.

 

[tlance]

Not all opinions are 'debatable'

In my opinion Jordan Poole is the best player in the NBA today. Shall we debate this?

That said, I do think at the very top level you cannot definitively "prove" which player was more GOAT than the others. All 3 (LeBron, MJ, and Kareem) have good cases.

My opinion is that @DJ Fieri is the greatest basketball player of all time.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Think McFly Think]

My opinion is that @DJ Fieri is the greatest basketball player of all time.

Prove me wrong.

I would be skeptical based on his diet alone.

 

[DJ Fieri]

My opinion is that @DJ Fieri is the greatest basketball player of all time.

Prove me wrong.

 

[DJ Fieri]

I would be skeptical based on his diet alone.

5-11 and 188.5 pounds.....despite what I eat.....

So politely fuck off....

 

[trojanfan12]

That said, I do think at the very top level you cannot definitively "prove" which player was more GOAT than the others. All 3 (LeBron, MJ, and Kareem) have good cases.

^^^This^^^

While many, maybe even most, will automatically put MJ as GOAT, if you really sit down and look at all 3 and what they accomplished in their careers...it comes down to things like preference in style of play and honestly...who folks saw/liked the most, etc.

A lot of the folks who prefer MJ, only saw him when he was winning championships and really don't know about how many times he lost in earlier rounds in the playoffs (like when he was facing Birds Celtics and the Bad Boy Pistons when they were at full strength).

 

[Think McFly Think]

5-11 and 188.5 pounds.....despite what I eat.....

So politely fuck off....

I wasn’t insinuating anything like that, but now I’m skeptical with the 5-11.

 

[tlance]

5-11 and 188.5 pounds.....despite what I eat.....

So politely fuck off....

DJ has a 56 inch vertical and he never misses a 3