My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[Albuquerque Rams]

You data is wrong

All finals opponents for LeBron were 50 win teams except the Thunder.

And that was the lockout year. So the league only played 66 games. Winning 47 out of 66 is easily better than 50 win pace.

So try again.

Not even going to look at the rest with such an obvious mistake in your numbers.

The 2012 Thunder's win total is adjusted for an 82-game pace.

As for your claim that there's something "obviously wrong" with my claim, prove it. I did the counting myself.

 

[DJ Fieri]

You data is wrong

All finals opponents for LeBron were 50 win teams except the Thunder.

And that was the lockout year. So the league only played 66 games. Winning 47 out of 66 is easily better than 50 win pace.

So try again.

Not even going to look at the rest with such an obvious mistake in your numbers.

Dude is a troll.....his first account (not sure what happened to it) sported an Aaron Darnold avatar, almost a mug shot of his face.....Don't remember him being much of an NBA fan on his previous stint on here.....prolly just pulled those out his ass.

 

[DJ Fieri]

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

If this has already been mentioned my bad. Number of hall of famers MJ and LeBron played against in the Finals.

Jordan- Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton & Malone

LeBron- Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Leonard (Kawhi's not there yet but he'll be in), Dirk, Kidd, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Steph, Klay, Dray, KD, J. Butler


Says a lot about LeBron's unmatched career that the only player he's ever compared to is His Airness.

The only thing about LeBron that's unmatched are the laundry list of excuses for his failures.

Parker was never a Top 10 player and neither was Manu, even in their prime. Both them and Duncan were dinosaurs in 2013 and 2014. Kawhi wasn't a star player in either 2013 & 14

Kidd was a dinosaur in 2011. Westbrook and Harden weren't anything close to MVP level in 2012. Klay has inferior advanced metrics than Jeff Hornacek, John Starks and Hersey Hawkins. Draymond is a walking triple single.

How many HOFers you have is irrelevant to how they're playing at that moment. Or are you gonna cite 43-year-old Robert Parish as an example of how much help Jordan had simply because Parish ultimately made the HOF even though he only played mop up duty that year? Porter in '92 and KJ in '93 were better players than Tony Parker ever was and miles better than 38-year-old Jason Kidd.

In fact that Dallas team was constructed very similarly to the late '90s Jazz. The difference is Stockton was playing at a better level in '97 and '98 than Kidd was in 2011. And the Jazz weren't fortunate enough to have Jordan average 17 PPG in the Finals.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Longevity LBJ
Better player at their best MJ

 

[trojanfan12]

The 2012 Thunder's win total is adjusted for an 82-game pace.

As for your claim that there's something "obviously wrong" with my claim, prove it. I did the counting myself.

The bold is the proof.

 

[msgkings322]

The only thing about LeBron that's unmatched are the laundry list of excuses for his failures.

Parker was never a Top 10 player and neither was Manu, even in their prime. Both them and Duncan were dinosaurs in 2013 and 2014. Kawhi wasn't a star player in either 2013 & 14

Kidd was a dinosaur in 2011. Westbrook and Harden weren't anything close to MVP level in 2012. Klay and Dray are unlikely to be Hall of Famers.

How many HOFers you have is irrelevant to how they're playing at that moment. Or are you gonna cite 43-year-old Robert Parish as an example of how much help Jordan had simply because Parish ultimately made the HOF even though he only played mop up duty that year? Porter in '92 and KJ in '93 were better players than Tony Parker ever was and miles better than 38-year-old Jason Kidd.

In fact that Dallas team was constructed very similarly to the late '90s Jazz. The difference is Stockton was playing at a better level in '97 and '98 than Kidd was in 2011. And the Jazz weren't fortunate enough to have Jordan average 17 PPG in the Finals.

Klay and Dray are probably first ballot hall of famers you goober. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading the rest of your bullshit

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

If this has already been mentioned my bad. Number of hall of famers MJ and LeBron played against in the Finals.

Jordan- Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Stockton & Malone

LeBron- Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Leonard (Kawhi's not there yet but he'll be in), Dirk, Kidd, KD, Harden, Westbrook, Steph, Klay, Dray, KD, J. Butler


Says a lot about LeBron's unmatched career that the only player he's ever compared to is His Airness.

Also, not all Hall of Famers are created equally. Or to put it another way, not all are inducted based on merit

Frank Ramsey and Satch Sanders are in the HOF, not because they earned it, but simply because they just happened to be on the '60s Celtics. Toni Kukoc would not have been in the HOF had he spent his whole career with the Grizzlies. Klay Thompson and Draymond Green will only make it because they were on the 2010s Warriors. Or do you really think Draymond would be getting in if he'd spent his whole career in Detroit or Charlotte?

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Klay and Dray are probably first ballot hall of famers you goober. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading the rest of your bullshit

Klay and Dray will only get in because they were on the Warriors. Had they spent their whole careers in Detroit or Charlotte, nobody would be talking about them. In other words, they won't be getting in on their own merit.

 

[msgkings322]

Klay and Dray will only get in because they were on the Warriors. Had they spent their whole careers in Detroit or Charlotte, nobody would be talking about them. In other words, they won't be getting in on their own merit.

That’s quality trolling there kiddo. Although you’re right in a sense. It’s about all the championships they won and being key parts of arguably the greatest team ever assembled. So yeah same stats in a team with no rings and they aren’t first ballot. But the rings matter.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

That’s quality trolling there kiddo. Although you’re right in a sense. It’s about all the championships they won and being key parts of arguably the greatest team ever assembled. So yeah same stats in a team with no rings and they aren’t first ballot. But the rings matter.

In other words, they aren't getting in on their own merit. Klay has worse career advanced metrics than Hornacek, Majerle, Nick Anderson and Hersey Hawkins, none of whom are HOFers. Draymond is a walking triple single.

They both hitched their wagons to Steph, someone who actually would make it on his own merit, rings or no rings.

 

[msgkings322]

In other words, they aren't getting in on their own merit. Klay has worse career advanced metrics than Hornacek, Majerle, Nick Anderson and Hersey Hawkins, none of whom are HOFers. Draymond is a walking triple single.

They both hitched their wagons to Steph, someone who actually would make it on his own merit, rings or no rings.

Their merit is being part of the best team ever Klay being the 2nd best shooter ever and Dray being an all time great defender and a point forward. Take them off the team and the Warriors aren’t nearly that great.

Neither are all time great players like Steph and KD. But they are definitely hall of famers, on merit. By the way for the basketball HoF not just the NBa counts. Dray led a team to a ncaa title.

Last word is yours, but you’re not changing any minds

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Their merit is being part of the best team ever Klay being the 2nd best shooter ever and Dray being an all time great defender and a point forward. Take them off the team and the Warriors aren’t nearly that great.

Neither are all time great players like Steph and KD. But they are definitely hall of famers, on merit. By the way for the basketball HoF not just the NBa counts. Dray led a team to a ncaa title.

Last word is yours, but you’re not changing any minds

The Warriors won in '22 with Klay playing like crap and Draymond having more turnovers and fouls than field goals. Steph was the only one still playing at a high level. They won those rings in spite of those two guys.

Again, do you really think either of these guys is having a HOF career in Charlotte?

Also, Draymond doesn't have a NCAA title. You made that up.

 

[msgkings322]

The Warriors won in '22 with Klay playing like crap and Draymond having more turnovers and fouls than field goals. Steph was the only one still playing at a high level.

You think I was referring to the '22 team? LOL

They won those rings in spite of those two guys.

Ok now you're just spinning out lol. Yeah they had nothing to do with '15 or 73 wins in '16 or '17 and '18.

Again, do you really think either of these guys is having a HOF career in Charlotte?

Same numbers, no rings...much more borderline but still probably get in. But that's not what happened. They won 4 rings and were part of the greatest team in history (arguably) from 2017-2019. They're getting in easy, hope you'll be ok.

Also, Draymond doesn't have a NCAA title. You made that up.

Yep I misremembered, I was wrong mea culpa.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You think I was referring to the '22 team? LOL

Ok now you're just spinning out lol. Yeah they had nothing to do with '15 or 73 wins in '16 or '17 and '18.

Same numbers, no rings...much more borderline but still probably get in. But that's not what happened. They won 4 rings and were part of the greatest team in history (arguably) from 2017-2019. They're getting in easy, hope you'll be ok.

Yep I misremembered, I was wrong mea culpa.

We all saw how important Draymond was in 2020 when Curry and Klay were injured and Durant was gone; worst record in the conference.

Again, Klay has inferior metrics to Hornacek and Hawkins, who aren't Hall of Famers. He's not getting in on his own merit just like Frank Ramsey, Satch Sanders and Toni Kukoc. He's getting in because he just happened to be on a good team. Why not lower the standard even further and induct Bruce Bowen and Mario Elie? Again, not all HOFers are created equally.

 

[msgkings322]

We all saw how important Draymond was in 2020 when Curry and Klay were injured and Durant was gone; worst record in the conference.

Again, Klay has inferior metrics to Hornacek and Hawkins, who aren't Hall of Famers. He's not getting in on his own merit just like Frank Ramsey, Satch Sanders and Toni Kukoc. He's getting in because he just happened to be on a good team. Why not lower the standard even further and induct Bruce Bowen and Mario Elie?

Holy shit LOL

 

[trojanfan12]

We all saw how important Draymond was in 2020 when Curry and Klay were injured and Durant was gone; worst record in the conference.

Want me to delete this sentence for you?

It's a bit of credibility killer.

 

[tlance]

The 2012 Thunder's win total is adjusted for an 82-game pace.

As for your claim that there's something "obviously wrong" with my claim, prove it. I did the counting myself.

No

All-NBA players in the East during the Bulls six title runs: 36, excluding Jordan or any teammate.

All-NBA players in the East during LeBron's 8 consecutive Finals trips: 25, excluding LeBron or any teammate.

50 win teams Bulls defeated in six title runs within their own conference: 10 out of 18 (54%)
Finals included: 16 of 24 (67%)

50 win teams Heat/Cavs defeated in their own conference from 2011-18: 11 out of 24 (46%)
Finals included: 14 of 32 (43%)

So fewer Finals runs for Jordan, yet more 50-win teams beaten while also having more All-NBA players within his own conference.

The losses to Dallas in 2011 and San Antonio in 2014 are the ultimate competition excuse killers for LeBron. Dallas was a geriatric jump-shooting team with one Top 10 player. San Antonio was a geriatric jump-shooting team with zero star players. In both cases, LeBron had a super team in his prime.

You gave MJ credit for 6/6 Finals opponents being 50 wins or better (which by the way is a weird place to start because 50 is not a high bar).

All 8 of LeBron’s opponents were 50
Wins or better, yet you only credited them for 3/8

OKC was 47-19 in 66 games which is easily better than 50 win pace

Check your work

 

[Stakesarehigh]

All-NBA players in the East during the Bulls six title runs: 36, excluding Jordan or any teammate.

All-NBA players in the East during LeBron's 8 consecutive Finals trips: 25, excluding LeBron or any teammate.

50 win teams Bulls defeated in six title runs within their own conference: 10 out of 18 (54%)
Finals included: 16 of 24 (67%)

50 win teams Heat/Cavs defeated in their own conference from 2011-18: 11 out of 24 (46%)
Finals included: 14 of 32 (43%)

So fewer Finals runs for Jordan, yet more 50-win teams beaten while also having more All-NBA players within his own conference.

The losses to Dallas in 2011 and San Antonio in 2014 are the ultimate competition excuse killers for LeBron. Dallas was a geriatric jump-shooting team with one Top 10 player. San Antonio was a geriatric jump-shooting team with zero star players. In both cases, LeBron had a super team in his prime.

Kawhi leonard and tim Duncan aren't stars?

Lol.

Duncan was all nba the year prior and Kawhi became Kawhi that year.

And then you get to Tony and Manu who are both HOF. Absurd take is Absurd.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Longevity LBJ
Better player at their best MJ

This is the my take