My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[Jordan23]

MJ had a losing record too

Lost more times than he won.

Why do people insist on elevating Finals record?

MJ’s finals opponents were extremely weak compared to LeBron’s

Taking a team to the Finals is not a negative

Cause he battled through the tough times with no help at all and kept improving and went on to win those titles without needing to leave the bulls and join Clyde or join Barkley, or go join Malone and Stockton. He had a different drive to win then todays players do. That alone is a big reason he is the goat along with everything else. Today’s players don’t have that. If they tried to get Jordan back then to take rest games off he would have tore them a new asshole. He wasn’t sitting for anything. These debates are stupid cause it goes a lot further than oh he averaged this many rebounds and he played for this long,

 

[tlance]

Oh NOW the number of rings matters to you, LMAO. Bron slurpers are great at double talk.

If losing to stacked teams is acceptable as long as you put up great stats and make the series competitive, then West>LeBron by your logic.

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

 

[tlance]

Cause he battled through the tough times with no help at all and kept improving and went on to win those titles without needing to leave the bulls and join Clyde or join Barkley, or go join Malone and Stockton. He had a different drive to win then todays players do. That alone is a big reason he is the goat along with everything else. Today’s players don’t have that. If they tried to get Jordan back then to take rest games off he would have tore them a new asshole. He wasn’t sitting for anything. These debates are stupid cause it goes a lot further than oh he averaged this many rebounds and he played for this long,

That is dishonest.

1st, the Bulls were built to contender level organically by the time MJ was in his 6th season.

2nd free agency wasn’t the same back then. Much less player movement because the rules gave tremendous advantages to the team that had the player under contract.

If Jordan had the opportunity to leave on free agency with similar rules to what there were in the 2000s and was drafted to team like Cleveland, he was out the door 100%.

 

[Jordan23]

That is dishonest.

1st, the Bulls were built to contender level organically by the time MJ was in his 6th season.

2nd free agency wasn’t the same back then. Much less player movement because the rules gave tremendous advantages to the team that had the player under contract.

If Jordan had the opportunity to leave on free agency with similar rules to what there were in the 2000s and was drafted to team like Cleveland, he was out the door 100%.

Jordan had a different Mind set, he wasn’t one who would take the easy way out. You are lost or don’t know MJ at all if you think he leaves. He was drafted to a team like the Cavs. The bulls were trash

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

Firstly, I've already picked apart the competition excuse. Secondly, it's equally if not more true that LeBron didn't face anyone good in the East from 2011 to 2018, which is the biggest reason he kept getting back. The Finals was the only time he faced a legitimate opponent in most of those years.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The Suns didn't "just have Barkley"

Even with MJ averaging 41 PPG in the series and outscoring every Sun by at least 13 PPG, the Suns and Bulls still scored the same total points cumulatively.

So if anything, Barkley was getting more from his mates than Jordan was.

Perhaps if you were following the conversation you would note the question was how many hall of famers they had.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

T


To be fair Kemp would smoke today’s players. Gar Payton also would be tough yet.

Kemp was a freak athlete who would be limited in todays game. Conversely some players from today would struggle in his era.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

You are out of you mind

I didn’t say rings don’t matter.

Of course they do. All part of the resume.

6-4 favors MJ.

But you are only hyper focusing on parts of the discussion that favor MJ and ignoring everything that doesn’t.

There is absolutely no debate that most of the teams that beat LeBron in the Finals were better than any team MJ played there.

Its not remotely debatable.