Series Thread: M's @ Orioles; June 25th - 28th

[Cloud]

I agree with winning ugly happens. It's baseball. The Yankees just got swept by the Rays for God's sake.

I disagree with just making the playoffs isn't the goal. For the actual players on the team, sure, but as a franchise and as fans, making the playoffs is a huge success, especially when you consider Felix has turned into "better Yovani Gallardo" and you don't have Cano for 80 games. The Yankees and Astros are clearly a step above the M's, and the Red Sox are arguably there.

Yes, do try to improve and fight for all you can, but should that end with a Wild Card game loss or a Divisional series loss, I'm chalking that up as a big success.

I agree. Let’s just say they make the WC game and loses, it still should consider to be a huge success to the season and build upon going forward.

By all means this team is second tier compared to the Red Sox, Yankees, and Astros but they can set themselves up to be successful beyond this year. Dipoto may have the brain to do that.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Why eat crow? That was a horrible AB that turned out to work this time.

Fair enough. I’ve flipped him lots of negativity on this board the last year plus. Figured I could throw him a bone for a decent day. I didn’t actually mean that I thought I was wrong about him. I still think he shouldn’t hit 4/5 and has hurt the team more then helped it lately.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I agree with winning ugly happens. It's baseball. The Yankees just got swept by the Rays for God's sake.

I disagree with just making the playoffs isn't the goal. For the actual players on the team, sure, but as a franchise and as fans, making the playoffs is a huge success, especially when you consider Felix has turned into "better Yovani Gallardo" and you don't have Cano for 80 games. The Yankees and Astros are clearly a step above the M's, and the Red Sox are arguably there.

Yes, do try to improve and fight for all you can, but should that end with a Wild Card game loss or a Divisional series loss, I'm chalking that up as a big success.

Just to end that wretched streak that currently is a black cloud over our heads would at least be something. But I’d agree that losing the WC game wouldn’t do much for me. Regardless it’s baseball. Get to that game and you have a shot

 

[NWinAZ]

I agree. Let’s just say they make the WC game and loses, it still should consider to be a huge success to the season and build upon going forward.

I have to disagree. Baseball for me isn't a building upon sport. 2001 we won 116 games and never have made the playoffs since. The seasons are too long and big markets can just spend to catch or pass teams like M's if they start to show they are a threat. For every team like the Astros there is a team like the Rangers who make it to multiple W.S.'s to then drop off the map very soon after. And a team like the Astros did it with youth coming up and maturing all at once (and all highly touted players). We are not that. We are stuck with aging vets sucking up 40% of the payroll. I hope you are right, but we are in an all-in season in my book.

 

[WizardHawk]

Being a WC team is better than what we've dealt with for 17 years so I get why some are upbeat about it. I mean there's a whole generation that doesn't know any better. I said a month ago I just won't fall for fool's gold anymore. We have been up and down with this team for years. More up lately than in a long time, but the floor drops out every single damned time.

It goes back to that 116 win season. That was a great ride and safeco was jumping all season. It was a lot of fun no doubt. That team did what only one other had ever done in the history of the game. We all dared to dream and believe. That was going to be the year. Finally FINALLY surely they would at least get to the WS. After all of those years of miserable baseball in that concrete monstrosity that was going to be the year that made every minute of it worth it. Only, they once again didn't.

Like all kids I dared to dream about what it would be like to see MY team play in the worlds biggest baseball series. Never even cared if they won it, just wanted the focus on that team. And always they fall short.

Always.

Every single time.

You either get where people like us are coming from, or you haven't suffered the same struggles and let downs.

 

[Cloud]

I have to disagree. Baseball for me isn't a building upon sport. 2001 we won 116 games and never have made the playoffs since. The seasons are too long and big markets can just spend to catch or pass teams like M's if they start to show they are a threat. For every team like the Astros there is a team like the Rangers who make it to multiple W.S.'s to then drop off the map very soon after. And a team like the Astros did it with youth coming up and maturing all at once (and all highly touted players). We are not that. We are stuck with aging vets sucking up 40% of the payroll. I hope you are right, but we are in an all-in season in my book.

Nothing Dipoto can do with the aging vets since he inherited them, he also inherited a weak farm system despite trading some younger guys away. But overall, I do consider them getting slightly younger with the guys that was brought in. My only hope is they can compete next few years.

As far as not making the playoffs since ‘01, sure, but the blame lies on Pat Gillick as he never cared for the farm system and set this organization back years. That and the fact that the GMs that followed Gillick were laughingstocks. I think Dipoto is trying his best to fix this organization but it has to start with the farm, which I don’t think he’s doing a good job at but we’ll see.

 

[Podunkparte]

It goes back to that 116 win season. That was a great ride and safeco was jumping all season. It was a lot of fun no doubt. That team did what only one other had ever done in the history of the game. We all dared to dream and believe. That was going to be the year. Finally FINALLY surely they would at least get to the WS. After all of those years of miserable baseball in that concrete monstrosity that was going to be the year that made every minute of it worth it. Only, they once again didn't.

Like all kids I dared to dream about what it would be like to see MY team play in the worlds biggest baseball series. Never even cared if they won it, just wanted the focus on that team. And always they fall short.

Always.

Every single time.

You either get where people like us are coming from, or you haven't suffered the same struggles and let downs.

Ok, but that's not how baseball works. Being the best team for 162 games doesn't mean you'll "surely at least get to the WS." It never has.

It's time to stop basing current expectations on the failures of the past. 2001 was an incredible year regardless of the postseason outcome. Hell, because of that year in the world, ask 100 people who won the World Series that year and 50 of them probably say the Yankees. The M's accomplished history that season but it pales in comparison to lofty expectations? For that season, ok. For the 2018 Mariners, absolutely not.

Plenty of us have struggled being fans of this team. Don't grasp at the low rung and claim some kind of "Whoa is me" trophy simply because you can't differentiate the success/failure of teams almost 2 decades apart.

 

[WizardHawk]

Ok, but that's not how baseball works. Being the best team for 162 games doesn't mean you'll "surely at least get to the WS." It never has.

It's time to stop basing current expectations on the failures of the past. 2001 was an incredible year regardless of the postseason outcome. Hell, because of that year in the world, ask 100 people who won the World Series that year and 50 of them probably say the Yankees. The M's accomplished history that season but it pales in comparison to lofty expectations? For that season, ok. For the 2018 Mariners, absolutely not.

Plenty of us have struggled being fans of this team. Don't grasp at the low rung and claim some kind of "Whoa is me" trophy simply because you can't differentiate the success/failure of teams almost 2 decades apart.

Well stop blindly attacking anyone that is too negative for your tastes. I'm completely fucking sick and tired of it. Don't read it. Ignore it. Nothing makes you get involved. I don't owe you a damned thing. At all.

ffs, I said that ride in '01 was great so don't sit there and act like I said anything other than it was incredible.

If I have a goal of some day wanting to see the team I like in the world series I have every right to it. Couldn't care less if you or anyone else are content with just a WC appearance and loss. Good for you. I want more. I've wanted more for over 40 years.

And we have said over and over it's not just '01. It's not just the year before, or 97/95. All of the greatest years. It's every single fucking year. What part of this aren't you getting? They fail 100% of the time to reach the goal.

 

[Podunkparte]

Well stop blindly attacking anyone that is too negative for your tastes. I'm completely fucking sick and tired of it. Don't read it. Ignore it. Nothing makes you get involved. I don't owe you a damned thing. At all.

I'm blindly attacking nobody. I simply call out blatant negativity based on pitch by pitch narratives (strike = M's good, ball = M's bad) and unrealistic expectations. No, not every team gets 3 runs every time the bases are loaded and nobody is out. To expect so, and nothing less, shows ignorance for the game. Don't like being called out for over reacting? "Don't read it. Ignore it. Nothing makes you get involved."

ffs, I said that ride in '01 was great so don't sit there and act like I said anything other than it was incredible.

Yet you still use not getting to the WS in '01 as an example of failure.

If I have a goal of some day wanting to see the team I like in the world series I have every right to it. Couldn't care less if you or anyone else are content with just a WC appearance and loss. Good for you. I want more. I've wanted more for over 40 years.

Cool.

And we have said over and over it's not just '01. It's not just the year before, or 97/95. All of the greatest years. It's every single fucking year. What part of this aren't you getting? They fail 100% of the time to reach the goal.

See quote #2. Again, stop using prior disappointment to dictate your ability to subjectively enjoy the 2018 Mariners

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

I agree with winning ugly happens. It's baseball. The Yankees just got swept by the Rays for God's sake.

I disagree with just making the playoffs isn't the goal. For the actual players on the team, sure, but as a franchise and as fans, making the playoffs is a huge success, especially when you consider Felix has turned into "better Yovani Gallardo" and you don't have Cano for 80 games. The Yankees and Astros are clearly a step above the M's, and the Red Sox are arguably there.

Yes, do try to improve and fight for all you can, but should that end with a Wild Card game loss or a Divisional series loss, I'm chalking that up as a big success.

I hear ya, but if we get there and we just lay an egg it’s gonna suck... M’s need to make a move or 2 and try to improve, Hopefully they can do that ...

 

[WizardHawk]

I'm blindly attacking nobody. I simply call out blatant negativity based on pitch by pitch narratives (strike = M's good, ball = M's bad) and unrealistic expectations. No, not every team gets 3 runs every time the bases are loaded and nobody is out. To expect so, and nothing less, shows ignorance for the game. Don't like being called out for over reacting? "Don't read it. Ignore it. Nothing makes you get involved."

Not surprised you fail to understand the difference between people complaining about the team and how they are playing, and those who complain about the fans up here.

I criticize some of the players, some of the managing decisions. You criticize the people up here that don't agree with you. So who is the one with issues again?

 

[NWinAZ]

Nothing Dipoto can do with the aging vets since he inherited them, he also inherited a weak farm system despite trading some younger guys away. But overall, I do consider them getting slightly younger with the guys that was brought in. My only hope is they can compete next few years.

As far as not making the playoffs since ‘01, sure, but the blame lies on Pat Gillick as he never cared for the farm system and set this organization back years. That and the fact that the GMs that followed Gillick were laughingstocks. I think Dipoto is trying his best to fix this organization but it has to start with the farm, which I don’t think he’s doing a good job at but we’ll see.

I have never understood the Gillick hate. His era was our second best era in franchise history which obviously included the 2001 season.

As far as him hating our farm system, I don't get that either. His job was to bring a playoff team to Seattle and not make Seattle a perennial championship team which would never happen in Seattle so he made trades to win now and not later which Dipoto needs to do as well because having a chance in Seattle is a rarity and they have to grab it when they can. Here is a list of his most notable trades and I will add a link for all his trades. Nothing he did hurt the future or the farm system unless these list are somehow incomplete.

Mariners

• February 10, 2000 traded Ken Griffey, Jr. to the Cincinnati Reds for Brett Tomko, Mike Cameron, Antonio Perez and Jake Meyer
• August 8, 2000 traded Sean Spencer and Terrmel Sledge to the Montreal Expos for Chris Widger
• December 11, 2001 traded Brett Tomko, Tom Lampkin and Ramon Vazquez to the San Diego Padres for Ben Davis, Alex Arias and Wascar Serrano
• December 16, 2001 traded Jose Paniagua, Dennis Stark and Brian Fuentes to the Colorado Rockies for Jeff Cirillo
• October 28, 2002 traded Antonio Perez to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Randy Winn. Compensation for allowing Lou Piniella to leave Seattle for Tampa Bay.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I have never understood the Gillick hate. His era was our second best era in franchise history which obviously included the 2001 season.

As far as him hating our farm system, I don't get that either. His job was to bring a playoff team to Seattle and not make Seattle a perennial championship team which would never happen in Seattle so he made trades to win now and not later which Dipoto needs to do as well because having a chance in Seattle is a rarity and they have to grab it when they can. Here is a list of his most notable trades and I will add a link for all his trades. Nothing he did hurt the future or the farm system unless these list are somehow incomplete.

Mariners

• February 10, 2000 traded Ken Griffey, Jr. to the Cincinnati Reds for Brett Tomko, Mike Cameron, Antonio Perez and Jake Meyer
• August 8, 2000 traded Sean Spencer and Terrmel Sledge to the Montreal Expos for Chris Widger
• December 11, 2001 traded Brett Tomko, Tom Lampkin and Ramon Vazquez to the San Diego Padres for Ben Davis, Alex Arias and Wascar Serrano
• December 16, 2001 traded Jose Paniagua, Dennis Stark and Brian Fuentes to the Colorado Rockies for Jeff Cirillo
• October 28, 2002 traded Antonio Perez to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Randy Winn. Compensation for allowing Lou Piniella to leave Seattle for Tampa Bay.

I think the main complaint of him is he left the cupboard pretty bare when he left. But like you said that had never really been his strength or what he was supposed to do when hired. Also mostly standing pat at the deadline between 2000-2003 when there could have been a move that made them better. However that could have easily been ownership penny pinching.

However he deserves a lot of credit for getting something for Griffey and Piniella. Easily could have gotten zilch in those two situations because they forced their way out.

 

[WizardHawk]

I think quite a few people wrongly hated on Gillick for Piniella leaving in the first place. I mean everyone knows Lou and Howard were at odds and their pretty public in season fight is why he left, but still Lou not getting the pieces he thought they should to send them over the top had a lot of fans pissed off at every single person above him.

This team has been pretty much garbage outside of one small stretch with Lou at the helm. He proved you can build a winner in a smaller market and put yourself into contention more than an oddball season every great now and then. He's still the only manager to ever take the M's to the post season. Think about that. That's crazy.

I have no issues with Gillick, but I know people who still hold grudges against everyone that was there when Lou left because baseball in Seattle has entirely sucked ass since he left. Lincoln and Armstrong were both idiots that let the only good thing this town had ever had going for them in this sport leave over personality conflicts and bullshit budget excuses.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Looking at the forecast, a game seems unlikely today

 

[Duders]

Looking at the forecast, a game seems unlikely today

Oh Oh...having a make-up back in Baltimore would be or will be a pain and would put off the sweep that this team needs now to feel good about themselves again after the beating they took in NY & Boston.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Oh Oh...having a make-up back in Baltimore would be or will be a pain and would put off the sweep that this team needs now to feel good about themselves again after the beating they took in NY & Boston.

tomorrow looks fine so I would assume double header tomorrow. Theres an off day Monday too, so the rest would lineup for there not to have to be a spot start.

 

[wazzu31]

I have never understood the Gillick hate. His era was our second best era in franchise history which obviously included the 2001 season.

As far as him hating our farm system, I don't get that either. His job was to bring a playoff team to Seattle and not make Seattle a perennial championship team which would never happen in Seattle so he made trades to win now and not later which Dipoto needs to do as well because having a chance in Seattle is a rarity and they have to grab it when they can. Here is a list of his most notable trades and I will add a link for all his trades. Nothing he did hurt the future or the farm system unless these list are somehow incomplete.

Mariners

• February 10, 2000 traded Ken Griffey, Jr. to the Cincinnati Reds for Brett Tomko, Mike Cameron, Antonio Perez and Jake Meyer
• August 8, 2000 traded Sean Spencer and Terrmel Sledge to the Montreal Expos for Chris Widger
• December 11, 2001 traded Brett Tomko, Tom Lampkin and Ramon Vazquez to the San Diego Padres for Ben Davis, Alex Arias and Wascar Serrano
• December 16, 2001 traded Jose Paniagua, Dennis Stark and Brian Fuentes to the Colorado Rockies for Jeff Cirillo
• October 28, 2002 traded Antonio Perez to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Randy Winn. Compensation for allowing Lou Piniella to leave Seattle for Tampa Bay.

A. He was a major asshole.

B. He didn't get along with the greatest manager in our history.

C. Made a huge mistake with negotiating Griffey and ARod at the same time.

D. Had a stacked farm system but refused to pull the string on a trade to get them to the WS.

E. He caused so much friction that Howard and Chuck decided to go with yes men instead of hiring legitimate general managers.

I know I'm in the minority but IMO the entire Mariners disaster is on him which I would have been fine with if he brought us a world title.

 

[Tapey]

Almost got to service John Claytons house today.

 

[NWinAZ]