Series Thread: M's Homestead: June 28th - July 7th

[WizardHawk]

I will level with you on two things one is that ownership is a problem as John Stanton isn't even top 15 in terms of net worth when it comes to owners in the MLB in which I believe there is financial restraint with operations on the ball club. An owner with a net worth of around 1 Billion probably doesn't want to see an annual payroll of 220-315 million.

Also, if we miss the playoffs now 2 years in a row then yes management would owe a big explanation to the fans and that would personally start to change my opinion. However someone said which is completely ridiculous to me in that if the Mariners made it to the ALCS and lost they should still fire management.

The problem with ownership approach is they want to go with the safe route to profits.

It's not that they don't have the money to spend on acquiring big time players. It's the risk that they could spend it and not get the results that would up the gate by more than enough to fully pay for it.

The formula they are using means they need to get lucky with the payroll they have because the risks are much lower.

And yes, you do conflate postings from multiple people. I haven't called for everyone to be fired. I'd love to see an upgrade at skipper because it's obvious he's not a top 10 manager, but if ownership isn't willing to spend money they aren't likely to replace him with anyone better anyway. A top level manager isn't going to take a job on a team that isn't willing to spend to fill holes and give them every tool they want.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

Because it essentially is a tear down. This team is built on the vision of JD if you bring in new management they are going to come in with their own vision of how to manage a franchise. They will most likely get rid of the manager Servais and the coaching staff and that alone will change the entire chemistry of the locker room because as he has been the manager going on 8 years so we don't know the possible negative or positive response players would have to that because guys like Kirby, Gilbert, and J Rod have known him their professional career. We don't know the effects of new coaches, management and players coming to the team changing chemistry. Could things get better? Possibly yes, to me is it worth the risk as we are in first place in the West on the majors level with a very good farm system put together? To me I wouldn't pull that plug until we make major leaps backwards and start finishing below .500 at the end of the season.

You can have a new fresh vision and not go through a tear down. Scotty, Jerry and other dumbasses aren't a gold standard of MLB that Mariners are making some huge mistake firing them. Outside of 1 very short playoff appearance, they're failures.

 

[wazzu31]

I will level with you on two things one is that ownership is a problem as John Stanton isn't even top 15 in terms of net worth when it comes to owners in the MLB in which I believe there is financial restraint with operations on the ball club. An owner with a net worth of around 1 Billion probably doesn't want to see an annual payroll of 220-315 million.

Also, if we miss the playoffs now 2 years in a row then yes management would owe a big explanation to the fans and that would personally start to change my opinion. However someone said which is completely ridiculous to me in that if the Mariners made it to the ALCS and lost they should still fire management.

John Stanton isn’t the owner, he is the face of an ownership group.

 

[wazzu31]

You can have a new fresh vision and not go through a tear down. Scotty, Jerry and other dumbasses aren't a gold standard of MLB that Mariners are making some huge mistake firing them. Outside of 1 very short playoff appearance, they're failures.

And it’s not like fans are asking for them to get the highest paid manager. They hired Vogt last year and now he is in the manager of the year conversations. Crap, they could fire Servais and bring Nelson Cruz in for an interview

 

[wazzu31]

I just thought of a brilliant idea. Fire Servais, then give the managers job to Haniger so his stupid contract comes off the books

 

[NWinAZ]

 

[seattlefan75]

I feel like there is something deeper going on here. I think its just strange that so many players come here and all just decide to have career low numbers behind the plate.

 

[WizardHawk]

I mean we've been saying this for years. It starts with the culture and approach set by management.

Lou came in and knocked the guys he inherited into line at the plate.

You can hit in Seattle if you approach the task with the intent it requires.

They will never hit well under Servais and their approach.

It's really not that hard to figure out.

 

[Msfann]

It comes down to culture and expectations. Do you think any of this would be allowed on the Yankees? I used to say about Silent Bob (Melvin) that he would knit the guys a sweater or bake them a cookie when they struck out and nothing has changed.

Nobody in management seems to care one bit that this team cannot hit and it's not like this is something new. they have been doing this for years.

Safeco field is getting kind old by baseball standards, wait until they demand a new stadium, I hope the city tells them to kiss its ass because were not falling for that bullshit again.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

And it’s not like fans are asking for them to get the highest paid manager. They hired Vogt last year and now he is in the manager of the year conversations. Crap, they could fire Servais and bring Nelson Cruz in for an interview

I want an assistant bench boss from a winning team that has had success. Not saying has to be WS winners but from teams that continuously are in the hunt for the playoffs/WS. A fresh approach/different vision on how to manage the roster.

 

[NWinAZ]

I feel like there is something deeper going on here. I think its just strange that so many players come here and all just decide to have career low numbers behind the plate.

There has to be more to it than just bad catching though I think that plays a part. I remember listening to Buhner talk during a game earlier this year and they asked him about if he was interested in coaching and he said heck no. Not after what Edgar went through. I was a bit shocked. I didn't know there was some kind of rift between the team and Edgar. Edgar is the man. How do you fight with that guy?

 

[NWinAZ]

There has to be more to it than just bad catching though I think that plays a part. I remember listening to Buhner talk during a game earlier this year and they asked him about if he was interested in coaching and he said heck no. Not after what Edgar went through. I was a bit shocked. I didn't know there was some kind of rift between the team and Edgar. Edgar is the man. How do you fight with that guy?

'coaching'. Damn my typing sucks with this computer.

 

[WizardHawk]

Here's the troubling part: We are told this management team heavily uses analytics and most of their decisions are driven by it. Why aren't their numbers showing that what they are doing at the plate is failing hard? Shouldn't they have analytics that say it's beyond time to make changes?

Are they so locked in their scheme that they will never change even after years and years of results showing it doesn't work?

The bottom line is their systems do not get the most out of the talent they have at the plate and they do nothing to address it.

 

[Msfann]

There has to be more to it than just bad catching though I think that plays a part. I remember listening to Buhner talk during a game earlier this year and they asked him about if he was interested in coaching and he said heck no. Not after what Edgar went through. I was a bit shocked. I didn't know there was some kind of rift between the team and Edgar. Edgar is the man. How do you fight with that guy?

I think he more so means that Edgar, a hitting god who was going into the hall of fame couldn't help these guys. When they hired him I remember asking people what's going to happen when they eventually have to fire him? It would look horrible for PR. I think Buhner and some of the other guys saw that and don't want any part of it. Ichiro did it right by being a roaming instructor with the team instead of the next scapegoat but even he can't seem to help these guys.

Imagine Griffey becoming the next head coach and failing so bad the fans hate him, there's no way he would put himself into that position. John McLaren is another good example, the fans loved him for being a bench coach in 95, he failed as the manager and became hated and was practically ran out of town.

 

[NWinAZ]

I think he more so means that Edgar, a hitting god who was going into the hall of fame couldn't help these guys. When they hired him I remember asking people what's going to happen when they eventually have to fire him? It would look horrible for PR. I think Buhner and some of the other guys saw that and don't want any part of it. Ichiro did it right by being a roaming instructor with the team instead of the next scapegoat but even he can't seem to help these guys.

Imagine Griffey becoming the next head coach and failing so bad the fans hate him, there's no way he would put himself into that position. John McLaren is another good example, the pacific northwest loved him for being a bench coach in 95, he failed as the manager and became hated and was practically ran out of town.

No, he was eluding to what he had to put up with. To me it sounded like there was dissension with the coaches/management and possibly ownership. It was like how can they treat Edgar like that and I never got the hint it was about when he was let go. Just my take.

 

[wazzu31]

I think he more so means that Edgar, a hitting god who was going into the hall of fame couldn't help these guys. When they hired him I remember asking people what's going to happen when they eventually have to fire him? It would look horrible for PR. I think Buhner and some of the other guys saw that and don't want any part of it. Ichiro did it right by being a roaming instructor with the team instead of the next scapegoat but even he can't seem to help these guys.

Imagine Griffey becoming the next head coach and failing so bad the fans hate him, there's no way he would put himself into that position. John McLaren is another good example, the fans loved him for being a bench coach in 95, he failed as the manager and became hated and was practically ran out of town.

Wasn’t McLaren the manager when the team nearly came to blows with Ichiro?

 

[Destroydacre]

The 2000 and 2001 Mariners both scored over 900 runs playing half their games in T mobile, the first 2 full years of the stadiums existence. Before the walls were moved in.

You can succeed just fine there, just don't suck. I think so much of it is a culture mindset, I can fail here and just blame the stadium because everyone else does. Loser mentality.

Don't get me wrong, the ballpark favors pitchers, I don't dispute that. But its effect is greatly overexaggerated due to decades of shit players on this team.

 

[NWinAZ]

The 2000 and 2001 Mariners both scored over 900 runs playing half their games in T mobile, the first 2 full years of the stadiums existence. Before the walls were moved in.

You can succeed just fine there, just don't suck. I think so much of it is a culture mindset, I can fail here and just blame the stadium because everyone else does. Loser mentality.

Don't get me wrong, the ballpark favors pitchers, I don't dispute that. But its effect is greatly overexaggerated due to decades of shit players on this team.

Like I posted on the other thread with hitting stats on home vs road since 2000, they have only ranked higher at home once vs their road ranking for that same year. There is something terribly wrong at that place.

2000
Home 14th 418 Runs
Away 1st 489 Runs

2001
Home 5th 440 Runs
Away 1st 487 Runs

 

[Destroydacre]

Like I posted on the other thread with hitting stats on home vs road since 2000, they have only ranked higher at home once vs their road ranking for that same year. There is something terribly wrong at that place.

2000
Home 14th 418 Runs
Away 1st 489 Runs

2001
Home 5th 440 Runs
Away 1st 487 Runs

Like I said I don't argue that t mobile favors pitchers. Stop using it as an excuse and hit the damn ball. T mobile isn't why these guys struck out over 1000 times before the asb.

 

[Cloud]

1013 strikeouts at the ASB. 98 games done.
That’s an insane 10.3 SO/G. That’s technically someone in the lineup having at least 2 SOs per game. Take your pick. It’s not because of T-Mobile.