Jimmy Graham to get franchise tag

[Midnightangel]

Sorry...WRs have CBs lined up across from them. The high tag cost of CBs goes hand in hand with the high tag cost of WRs. See how that works?

Ah, so you can't answer the question. Got it.

But let's apply your standard to OTHER positions, shall we?

QB's that should make less - Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers. Why? Because they play crap defenses. Doesn't count.

For that matter, why do the Pats get to play in a crap division and win the title every year by default? They shouldn't get one.

See how little sense all that makes?

Graham can't help who lines up opposite him anymore than the QB's I mentioned can help that the secondaries they face are crap. The Pats can't help that their division is a joke - and most of the time they have the easiest schedule in the NFL (this coming year they'll have one of the hardest). You play who's in front of you - both on the field and on the schedule.

And the Saints don't seem to mind who lines up opposite him as long as he's putting up sick yardage. If he were doing this from the TE slot most of the time then I'd be with you but he lines up as a WR 67% of the time.

So he plays as a WR most of the time and he puts up matching numbers.

Pay the man like a WR.

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

 

[RoboticDreams]

That's exactly what the Ravens and Suggs did in 2008. He was given the LB tag and Suggs claimed he was a DE. They worked out a long term deal that both parties were happy with.

Exactly. Another dynamic that some may not be taking into account, is top wideout vs top slot receiver. Did Wes Welker get a contract even approaching a top wideout contract? If anything they should find a happy medium between slot receiver contracts and TE contracts. Jimmy didn't line up outside like a Calvin Johnson or Fitzgerald do.

 

[Money]

Ah, so you can't answer the question. Got it.

But let's apply your standard to OTHER positions, shall we?

QB's that should make less - Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers. Why? Because they play crap defenses. Doesn't count.

For that matter, why do the Pats get to play in a crap division and win the title every year by default? They shouldn't get one.

See how little sense all that makes?

Graham can't help who lines up opposite him anymore than the QB's I mentioned can help that the secondaries they face are crap. The Pats can't help that their division is a joke - and most of the time they have the easiest schedule in the NFL (this coming year they'll have one of the hardest). You play who's in front of you - both on the field and on the schedule.

And the Saints don't seem to mind who lines up opposite him as long as he's putting up sick yardage. If he were doing this from the TE slot most of the time then I'd be with you but he lines up as a WR 67% of the time.

So he plays as a WR most of the time and he puts up matching numbers.

Pay the man like a WR.

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

Geez...ramble much???

Your last sentence is perfect though. That is EXACTLY what Graham is attempting to do. He wants to be recognized as one of the top TEs in the game. I'm sure he desires to one day be voted into the HOF (which will ONLY happen if he's considered a TE). I'm pretty sure he cashed his pro bowl checks (which he received ONLY because he's a TE). Now, however, he wants to be considered a WR. How convenient.

 

[fearthepelicans]

It doesn't matter what the Saints tag him as. He'll be getting a contract worth $10+M/Year either way.

 

[Midnightangel]

Geez...ramble much???

Your last sentence is perfect though. That is EXACTLY what Graham is attempting to do. He wants to be recognized as one of the top TEs in the game. I'm sure he desires to one day be voted into the HOF (which will ONLY happen if he's considered a TE). I'm pretty sure he cashed his pro bowl checks (which he received ONLY because he's a TE). Now, however, he wants to be considered a WR. How convenient.

No, it's EXACTLY what the Saints are wanting to do.

He's the best receiver on the team, but hey, let's pay him half of what he's giving us.

 

[JDM]

Exactly. Another dynamic that some may not be taking into account, is top wideout vs top slot receiver. Did Wes Welker get a contract even approaching a top wideout contract? If anything they should find a happy medium between slot receiver contracts and TE contracts. Jimmy didn't line up outside like a Calvin Johnson or Fitzgerald do.

That's all great. But if welker was franchised guess what the price tag would be. What the value actually is doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

[Midnightangel]

What would happen if, the next time Brees tried to send him out to the slot, Graham refused to go?

"I'm a Tight End. Let's look at that word...that means I'm an END that stays TIGHT on the line. I'll run patterns from this position and this postion only. Other than that, I'll block my ass off".

The Saints would come UN-GLUED!

Why?

Because it would kill their offense. He'd still produce, just not as much. So Drew Brees just lost about 800 yards of offense and 8 TD's or so. I'm sure that would translate into a few less W's as well.

But hey, he's a TE now in the truest sense of the word. So feel free to pay him JUST like a TE.

 

[RoboticDreams]

That's all great. But if welker was franchised guess what the price tag would be. What the value actually is doesn't matter in the slightest.

Okay? I guess position has no meaning?

 

[JDM]

Okay? I guess position has no meaning?

Position you play does. Graham plays WR. Slot verse outside? No. That has no meaning to the franchise tag.

 

[Money]

Position you play does. Graham plays WR. Slot verse outside? No. That has no meaning to the franchise tag.

There seems to be some confusion over this. He has been voted an all-pro as a TE. He has participated in (and been paid for) pro bowls as a TE. He has a chance to make the HOF as a TE (and no chance at any other position).

 

[JDM]

He lines up as a WR.

 

[Money]

He lines up as a WR.

Well...the league determined he should be tagged as a TE.

 

[Clayton]

Well...the league determined he should be tagged as a TE.

I guess a WR by any other name is no longer a WR

Graham is not a TE

 

[Midnightangel]

Well...the league determined he should be tagged as a TE.

I checked both NFL.com and ESPN.com and neither said this. Could you please post a link?

I heard on NFLAM that the Saints tagged him as a TE, but that Graham was going to file a grievence. I've never read anything that said the league determined him to be tagged as a TE.

Could you please share with the rest of the class?

 

[darken65]

I really have to say after looking at what a TEs' money is I can't blame the guy one bit. It is the second lowest tag for a player to get....only a K or P is less. An OL can command 11.6 mil. They should change this due to what TEs are doing in today's NFL.

 

[Money]

I checked both NFL.com and ESPN.com and neither said this. Could you please post a link?

I heard on NFLAM that the Saints tagged him as a TE, but that Graham was going to file a grievence. I've never read anything that said the league determined him to be tagged as a TE.

Could you please share with the rest of the class?

Teams do not name the position players are tagged at. They NFL officially tagged him as a TE yesterday.

NFL officially applies tight end tag to Jimmy Graham | ProFootballTalk

Class dismissed.

 

[flaraider]

That's exactly what the Ravens and Suggs did in 2008. He was given the LB tag and Suggs claimed he was a DE. They worked out a long term deal that both parties were happy with.

I tend to agree, it's not like they are negotiating a straight contract, they are franchising him, in which case where he lines up and/or where he takes the snap matters, not what position he is defined as playing. An arbitrator will decide which is more significant, where he lines up or where he takes the snap, I happen to think it is where he takes the snap. He is not saying he is a #1 WR, obviously he is a slot receiver in that respect. It is the "dreaded" franchise tag that creates this issue.

This is from the PFT article:

It sets the stage for a grievance to be filed by Graham and the NFLPA arguing that, based on the language of the labor deal, Graham is actually a receiver.

The league’s release even quotes the relevant language from the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which states that the tender will be based on “the position . . . at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year.”

 

[Midnightangel]

Teams do not name the position players are tagged at. They NFL officially tagged him as a TE yesterday.

NFL officially applies tight end tag to Jimmy Graham | ProFootballTalk

Class dismissed.

TY.

That's what I was asking for.

But class is hardly dismissed on this...

It sets the stage for a grievance to be filed by Graham and the NFLPA arguing that, based on the language of the labor deal, Graham is actually a receiver.

The league’s release even quotes the relevant language from the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which states that the tender will be based on “the position . . . at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year.”

Graham will argue that he lined up more as receiver than as a tight end in 2013. The Saints will argue that tight ends routinely line up in the slot or split wide, but that this doesn’t make them something other than tight ends, since only tight ends line up tight to the tackle.

In other words, the Saints hope to persuade the System Arbitrator to find that, when Graham lines up in the slot or split wide, he’s still participating in those plays as a tight end.

This fight is just beginning and precedent COULD be set depending upon how long this goes on.

The Saints made a mistake on this. The pissed off a man they want to resign and he might jack up his rate an extra amount just to make a point.

And as some point, he might decide to leave NO. Are the Saints really going to franchise him from now until he retires? I don't think they can franchise a player that many times in a row.

At some point they're going to have to give him what he wants - or he'll take his show on the road. Atlanta? Green Bay?

 

[JDM]

Yeah, this fight hasn't even started yet.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

The league’s release even quotes the relevant language from the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which states that the tender will be based on “the position . . . at which the Franchise Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year.”

Yeah, this fight hasn't even started yet.

There is no fight really. Jimmy Graham only lined up as a TE in 33% of his plays last year. 67% of the time he was lined up in the slot or out wide. Based on the CBA -- his tag will be changed to that of a WR, because that is how the Saints used him in 2013.

The Saints list him as a TE, but use him as a WR 2/3rd's of the time. It will be similar to Terrell Suggs arbitration case where they wanted to call him a OLB, instead of a DE. Suggs lined up as a DE the majority of the time the year prior, so he was given a DE tag.