Jimmy Graham Reportedly "Pissed Off" at Seahawks

[gohusk]

Pete Carroll said on Monday his game plan was to get the ball to Jimmy early and often. Carroll said 4 out the first 5 passing plays were designed to go to Graham but Green Bay didn't allow that to work out. Russell Wilson is not known to be a gunslinger, he's known as a QB who is smart with the football. He's not going to force something that isn't there just to appease fans. Graham is going to be a big part of the game plan every week, but sometimes plans don't go the way you want. Graham had 11+ targets in some games with Brees, but he also had some 0 target games. In 2013 and 2014 Graham had 8 games where he was targeted only 5, 2, 3, 0, 5, 0, 3, and 5 times. The sky isn't falling because Graham had one slow game with Seattle so far. He's going to get his catches. Be patient.

That's the problem with the offense. He can sling the ball. He does sling the ball when the team needs it most. Why not let him run the offense for 4 quarters instead of the moments we let him do it during the "oh, shit!" stretches of the game. That's what you expect out of 20 million dollar QB's.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

That's the problem with the offense. He can sling the ball. He does sling the ball when the team needs it most. Why not let him run the offense for 4 quarters instead of the moments we let him do it during the "oh, shit!" stretches of the game. That's what you expect out of 20 million dollar QB's.

I hear you, but on the other hand the formula has worked for three years, two superbowl appearances and one title. If the system works why tinker with it just to get one guy catches? We may be 0-2 but we had a chance to win both of those games late by sticking with our system. I'm not going to panic, it's only two games. Jimmy had a really good first game and now one bad game. As the season goes on he'll get used more. I have no doubt of this.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Pete Carroll said on Monday his game plan was to get the ball to Jimmy early and often. Carroll said 4 out the first 5 passing plays were designed to go to Graham but Green Bay didn't allow that to work out. Russell Wilson is not known to be a gunslinger, he's known as a QB who is smart with the football. He's not going to force something that isn't there just to appease fans. Graham is going to be a big part of the game plan every week, but sometimes plans don't go the way you want. Graham had 11+ targets in some games with Brees, but he also had some 0 target games. In 2013 and 2014 Graham had 8 games where he was targeted only 5, 2, 3, 0, 5, 0, 3, and 5 times. The sky isn't falling because Graham had one slow game with Seattle so far. He's going to get his catches. Be patient.

Agreed...if the sky is falling, it's because SEA is 0-2 more so than Graham touches. No way would they give up a 1st round pick and not allow him to impact the OFC...that would be insane.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

I think only one out of three of those is true or matter. The Kam holdout is the only real issue. JG is pissed? Seems like more of a rumor than anything since I've never seen any quotes where he said he's mad. And for all we know Lynch might always be a dick to kids, that is if we want to still consider 13 year olds "kids". I don't think he was ever going to win "friendliest player in the NFL", or play Santa Claus at the local children's hospital.

You don't think Wilsons turnovers at the end of games is an issue?

He seemed to be nails prior to last years playoffs. Regardless they made it to the SB, but that GB game was an anomaly that may never be repeated. Next he throws the game losing pick in the SB. Then to start this year another game loser against GB. Not that we have a ton of games since last years playoffs, but sometimes the magnitude of those kinds of turnovers can have lasting effects on young QB's.

I can guarantee there is some behind the scenes locker room chatter about the contract Wilson signed. That team revolved around Lynch and the Defense and Wilson got the HUGE contract. I felt they had to do it, but I have to think the hard nose guys that make that engine go are talking. It is no coincidence, Kam's holdout comes on the heels of Wilsons contract. Kam's probably thinking sign Wilson for a couple of million less and take care of me. After all, he was an absolute beast in the playoffs last year.

With all that said, the Seahawks are a team that can turn this thing around in a hurry. But this year does seem a bid different. I realize last year the started 3-3, but the team had a different feel and no distractions. I never would have guessed this Bears game would have such huge implications on their season.

 

[gohusk]

You don't think Wilsons turnovers at the end of games is an issue?

He seemed to be nails prior to last years playoffs. Regardless they made it to the SB, but that GB game was an anomaly that may never be repeated. Next he throws the game losing pick in the SB. Then to start this year another game loser against GB. Not that we have a ton of games since last years playoffs, but sometimes the magnitude of those kinds of turnovers can have lasting effects on young QB's.

I can guarantee there is some behind the scenes locker room chatter about the contract Wilson signed. That team revolved around Lynch and the Defense and Wilson got the HUGE contract. I felt they had to do it, but I have to think the hard nose guys that make that engine go are talking. It is no coincidence, Kam's holdout comes on the heels of Wilsons contract. Kam's probably thinking sign Wilson for a couple of million less and take care of me. After all, he was an absolute beast in the playoffs last year.

With all that said, the Seahawks are a team that can turn this thing around in a hurry. But this year does seem a bid different. I realize last year the started 3-3, but the team had a different feel and no distractions. I never would have guessed this Bears game would have such huge implications on their season.

He made a bad decision at the end of the Packers game. He was moving the ball in the 3rd and still put together a couple of decent games against the Rams and the Packers but there's obviously work to do. The Packers are also a very good football team (obviously) and for whatever reason the Seahakws have had nothing but problems playing in St. Louis. I'm not worried about him. If he put together a game like Luck did (yes, I am using this as an excuse to take a shot at Luck for shits and giggles) then I'd be worried. But Luck isn't one of the highest paid QB's in the league so the expectations have to be higher for Wilson.

 

[cdumler7]

Pete Carroll said on Monday his game plan was to get the ball to Jimmy early and often. Carroll said 4 out the first 5 passing plays were designed to go to Graham but Green Bay didn't allow that to work out. Russell Wilson is not known to be a gunslinger, he's known as a QB who is smart with the football. He's not going to force something that isn't there just to appease fans. Graham is going to be a big part of the game plan every week, but sometimes plans don't go the way you want. Graham had 11+ targets in some games with Brees, but he also had some 0 target games. In 2013 and 2014 Graham had 8 games where he was targeted only 5, 2, 3, 0, 5, 0, 3, and 5 times. The sky isn't falling because Graham had one slow game with Seattle so far. He's going to get his catches. Be patient.

The problem with this to me is it does seem Wilson is afraid to pull the trigger. I would also call Carroll a liar on that one. Just go back and watch the film. First pass play was a screen pass where Graham was a blocker. 2nd pass Wilson as soon as he got his 3 step drop stared down the outside short pass that went for no gain. He didn't even look towards the middle where Graham was and didn't even take the time to go through his reads. 3rd pass play I can agree that it was designed to Graham but if it was it was a very bad call. It was 3rd and 8 and it was a very slow developing play where Wilson didn't even give Graham a chance to get into his route as he did a chip block before going out into his route. 4th play again I agree it was for Graham and they tried to get it to him but it was a very bad pass attempt by Wilson. Graham had one-on-one coverage and instead of throwing it up giving him a chance to win the jump ball he threw it on the inside giving the defensive player more of a chance at it and Graham almost had to play more of a defensive player on the route. Finally 5th passing play was 3rd and 3 and Wilson threw it to Luke Wilson who was covered big time. Again he didn't give Graham a chance to run the rub route to the outside they had set up and he was breaking to be open. Looked like Wilson planned to go to Wilson the whole way.

So what does all of this tell us...Well to me it shows that Wilson and Graham have no chemistry at this point. Wilson just does not trust him to win those jump balls that he was so good at with Brees. He sees a guy near him and because he wants to protect the ball so much Wilson just doesn't want to throw it that way. Next would be Graham is not the fastest guy in the world and to me it just looks like Wilson is not letting the play develop for whatever reason. I'm guessing OL issues play a small part in that. Finally the play calling to get Graham the ball just is not impressive. Like I said they are slow developing plays where they are asking him to chip a guy or do a delayed release or wait for a rub route to develop. Even if the play is designed to go to Graham Wilson just isn't giving him the time to let the route develop. So in my opinion they need to do some more routes that both of them are comfortable with such as the seem route without asking him to chip.

 

[SonnyCID]

Awful cocky. Seattle will not cover that spread.

I'll take that bet.

 

[chf]

You don't think Wilsons turnovers at the end of games is an issue?

He seemed to be nails prior to last years playoffs. Regardless they made it to the SB, but that GB game was an anomaly that may never be repeated. Next he throws the game losing pick in the SB. Then to start this year another game loser against GB. Not that we have a ton of games since last years playoffs, but sometimes the magnitude of those kinds of turnovers can have lasting effects on young QB's.

I can guarantee there is some behind the scenes locker room chatter about the contract Wilson signed. That team revolved around Lynch and the Defense and Wilson got the HUGE contract. I felt they had to do it, but I have to think the hard nose guys that make that engine go are talking. It is no coincidence, Kam's holdout comes on the heels of Wilsons contract. Kam's probably thinking sign Wilson for a couple of million less and take care of me. After all, he was an absolute beast in the playoffs last year.

With all that said, the Seahawks are a team that can turn this thing around in a hurry. But this year does seem a bid different. I realize last year the started 3-3, but the team had a different feel and no distractions. I never would have guessed this Bears game would have such huge implications on their season.

The group dynamics thing is an issue no matter what. As for him overcoming those mistakes, it's his intangibles that make him who he is. You could be right, and he'll regress, but my money is on him continuing to work his *ss off, and get better.

 

[Sportsdude101]

The Seahawks are in disarray.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

You don't think Wilsons turnovers at the end of games is an issue?

He seemed to be nails prior to last years playoffs. Regardless they made it to the SB, but that GB game was an anomaly that may never be repeated. Next he throws the game losing pick in the SB. Then to start this year another game loser against GB. Not that we have a ton of games since last years playoffs, but sometimes the magnitude of those kinds of turnovers can have lasting effects on young QB's.

I can guarantee there is some behind the scenes locker room chatter about the contract Wilson signed. That team revolved around Lynch and the Defense and Wilson got the HUGE contract. I felt they had to do it, but I have to think the hard nose guys that make that engine go are talking. It is no coincidence, Kam's holdout comes on the heels of Wilsons contract. Kam's probably thinking sign Wilson for a couple of million less and take care of me. After all, he was an absolute beast in the playoffs last year.

With all that said, the Seahawks are a team that can turn this thing around in a hurry. But this year does seem a bid different. I realize last year the started 3-3, but the team had a different feel and no distractions. I never would have guessed this Bears game would have such huge implications on their season.

We are really talking about two game ending picks. The SB and the last GB game. Both of the picks were extremely good plays by the defense. They get paid too. It happens. Wilson has far more game winning drives than he does game losing ones so I'm not too concerned.

If there is locker room chatter about Russell's contract it won't be about him personally. It will be more about how QBs get so much more than everyone else everywhere in the NFL. The players know this. Our hard nose guys have little to complain about. Most of our stars on D have all got paid very well for their positions. Even Kam finally figured that out today, even if he doesn't agree with it.

 

[gohusk]

The problem with this to me is it does seem Wilson is afraid to pull the trigger. I would also call Carroll a liar on that one. Just go back and watch the film. First pass play was a screen pass where Graham was a blocker. 2nd pass Wilson as soon as he got his 3 step drop stared down the outside short pass that went for no gain. He didn't even look towards the middle where Graham was and didn't even take the time to go through his reads. 3rd pass play I can agree that it was designed to Graham but if it was it was a very bad call. It was 3rd and 8 and it was a very slow developing play where Wilson didn't even give Graham a chance to get into his route as he did a chip block before going out into his route. 4th play again I agree it was for Graham and they tried to get it to him but it was a very bad pass attempt by Wilson. Graham had one-on-one coverage and instead of throwing it up giving him a chance to win the jump ball he threw it on the inside giving the defensive player more of a chance at it and Graham almost had to play more of a defensive player on the route. Finally 5th passing play was 3rd and 3 and Wilson threw it to Luke Wilson who was covered big time. Again he didn't give Graham a chance to run the rub route to the outside they had set up and he was breaking to be open. Looked like Wilson planned to go to Wilson the whole way.

So what does all of this tell us...Well to me it shows that Wilson and Graham have no chemistry at this point. Wilson just does not trust him to win those jump balls that he was so good at with Brees. He sees a guy near him and because he wants to protect the ball so much Wilson just doesn't want to throw it that way. Next would be Graham is not the fastest guy in the world and to me it just looks like Wilson is not letting the play develop for whatever reason. I'm guessing OL issues play a small part in that. Finally the play calling to get Graham the ball just is not impressive. Like I said they are slow developing plays where they are asking him to chip a guy or do a delayed release or wait for a rub route to develop. Even if the play is designed to go to Graham Wilson just isn't giving him the time to let the route develop. So in my opinion they need to do some more routes that both of them are comfortable with such as the seem route without asking him to chip.

I bolded that because that's one of the main problems with the offence. PC will absolutely not tolerate timing routes over the middle. I'm pretty sure that's a big part of Grahams game because the range his arms give him makes it a safer throw. If you aren't going to run that route then there was no reason to pick him up. Willson's getting the ball because a guy of Willson's caliber (less than average) can fill that roll. He'd actually be pretty good if he didn't have a pair of toasters for hands but that's the level of TE that this offensive scheme is looking for.

 

[Mondo Jay]

What does being soft have to do with Seattle basically never giving him the ball?

Maybe they don't want him to get broken.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

The problem with this to me is it does seem Wilson is afraid to pull the trigger. I would also call Carroll a liar on that one. Just go back and watch the film. First pass play was a screen pass where Graham was a blocker. 2nd pass Wilson as soon as he got his 3 step drop stared down the outside short pass that went for no gain. He didn't even look towards the middle where Graham was and didn't even take the time to go through his reads. 3rd pass play I can agree that it was designed to Graham but if it was it was a very bad call. It was 3rd and 8 and it was a very slow developing play where Wilson didn't even give Graham a chance to get into his route as he did a chip block before going out into his route. 4th play again I agree it was for Graham and they tried to get it to him but it was a very bad pass attempt by Wilson. Graham had one-on-one coverage and instead of throwing it up giving him a chance to win the jump ball he threw it on the inside giving the defensive player more of a chance at it and Graham almost had to play more of a defensive player on the route. Finally 5th passing play was 3rd and 3 and Wilson threw it to Luke Wilson who was covered big time. Again he didn't give Graham a chance to run the rub route to the outside they had set up and he was breaking to be open. Looked like Wilson planned to go to Wilson the whole way.

So what does all of this tell us...Well to me it shows that Wilson and Graham have no chemistry at this point. Wilson just does not trust him to win those jump balls that he was so good at with Brees. He sees a guy near him and because he wants to protect the ball so much Wilson just doesn't want to throw it that way. Next would be Graham is not the fastest guy in the world and to me it just looks like Wilson is not letting the play develop for whatever reason. I'm guessing OL issues play a small part in that. Finally the play calling to get Graham the ball just is not impressive. Like I said they are slow developing plays where they are asking him to chip a guy or do a delayed release or wait for a rub route to develop. Even if the play is designed to go to Graham Wilson just isn't giving him the time to let the route develop. So in my opinion they need to do some more routes that both of them are comfortable with such as the seem route without asking him to chip.

We simply have too small of a sample size to make any broad judgements. You are using the GB game as proof they don't have chemistry, but I could point to his 8 targets, 6 catches, 51 yards and a TD against the Rams to say they have great chemistry. Too early to tell. My bet is Graham will be featured more and more as the season goes on.

 

[cdumler7]

I bolded that because that's one of the main problems with the offence. PC will absolutely not tolerate timing routes over the middle. I'm pretty sure that's a big part of Grahams game because the range his arms give him makes it a safer throw. If you aren't going to run that route then there was no reason to pick him up. Willson's getting the ball because a guy of Willson's caliber (less than average) can fill that roll. He'd actually be pretty good if he didn't have a pair of toasters for hands but that's the level of TE that this offensive scheme is looking for.

To me a few teams did this during the off season of getting very talented guys that don't fit their system very well. I guess they view it as talent trumps system and that they can make it work. The Chiefs did this with Maclin as he is one of the best deep threats in the game right now yet last year Alex Smith only attempted 18 passing attempts longer than 20 yards if I remember right. Of all the full-time starters he at least had the fewest. So why go get a deep threat receiver if you never attempt that play anyway? Then throw in paying that player top dollar for the position. If Graham is going to work out for the Seahawks they are going to have to figure out better route systems for him to run (just need to watch what they did in NO to understand what he likes) and then Wilson is just going to have to learn throwing it up for grabs is actually a very good decision. I know he hates turnovers so the idea of throwing on up and just letting the receiver and defensive player battle goes against what he wants to do and goes against what Carroll wants in his offense.

 

[cdumler7]

We simply have too small of a sample size to make any broad judgements. You are using the GB as proof they don't have chemistry, but I could point to his 8 targets, 6 catches, 51 yards and a TD against the Rams to say they have great chemistry. Too early to tell. My bet is Graham will be featured more and more as the season goes on.

To me why I say chemistry looks wrong is the fact of where Wilson is putting the ball when throwing to Graham. In that 1st quarter throw along the sideline he threw it chest high on the defender to the inside where the defensive player had great leverage. Then around the goal line again he threw it chest high instead of up where Graham is the only guy who can catch it at that height. If he misses it then it is an incomplete pass at worst. That is why I say chemistry right now just doesn't look right. Ball placement is where Wilson is still trying to fit it in to a guy like Baldwin where it needs to be precise.

 

[gohusk]

To me a few teams did this during the off season of getting very talented guys that don't fit their system very well. I guess they view it as talent trumps system and that they can make it work. The Chiefs did this with Maclin as he is one of the best deep threats in the game right now yet last year Alex Smith only attempted 18 passing attempts longer than 20 yards if I remember right. Of all the full-time starters he at least had the fewest. So why go get a deep threat receiver if you never attempt that play anyway? Then throw in paying that player top dollar for the position. If Graham is going to work out for the Seahawks they are going to have to figure out better route systems for him to run (just need to watch what they did in NO to understand what he likes) and then Wilson is just going to have to learn throwing it up for grabs is actually a very good decision. I know he hates turnovers so the idea of throwing on up and just letting the receiver and defensive player battle goes against what he wants to do and goes against what Carroll wants in his offense.

The route system is obvious. Attack the seam. Teams are begging the Seahawks to attack the seam by loading the box against them. In the Packers game they actually did start to attack the space that was basically wide open and started moving the ball. It's stupid. They got tons of game film showing this glaring problem and an obvious solution but refuse to make adjustments.

 

[cdumler7]

The route system is obvious. Attack the seam. Teams are begging the Seahawks to attack the seam by loading the box against them. In the Packers game they actually did start to attack the space that was basically wide open and started moving the ball. It's stupid. They got tons of game film showing this glaring problem and an obvious solution but refuse to make adjustments.

I do think this is the one weakness to the passing game for Wilson. His height is a small issue and part of why he likes to run out of the pocket to have better windows to throw to. That seam pass is one that is usually made with great timing inside the pocket. Again this is where trusting a 6'7" TE though needs to come into play. Right now this is not something I am too worried about though as I do think they eventually get this all figured out. It just really does take time to develop such trust for him to come down with passes that Wilson is just not used to making especially to a guy that looks covered.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

To me why I say chemistry looks wrong is the fact of where Wilson is putting the ball when throwing to Graham. In that 1st quarter throw along the sideline he threw it chest high on the defender to the inside where the defensive player had great leverage. Then around the goal line again he threw it chest high instead of up where Graham is the only guy who can catch it at that height. If he misses it then it is an incomplete pass at worst. That is why I say chemistry right now just doesn't look right. Ball placement is where Wilson is still trying to fit it in to a guy like Baldwin where it needs to be precise.

Might be chemistry, or it might be Russell made two poor throws is all. You may be right, but I'm saying we probably need about 7 or 8 games before we can even begin to know if JG is being used enough.

 

[gohusk]

I do think this is the one weakness to the passing game for Wilson. His height is a small issue and part of why he likes to run out of the pocket to have better windows to throw to. That seam pass is one that is usually made with great timing inside the pocket. Again this is where trusting a 6'7" TE though needs to come into play. Right now this is not something I am too worried about though as I do think they eventually get this all figured out. It just really does take time to develop such trust for him to come down with passes that Wilson is just not used to making especially to a guy that looks covered.

That's not what's been happening the first two games though. He's had plenty of throws out of the pocket so far. The problem is that because most of them are so slow to develop he has to roll out because he has someone in his face. You can't base an entire offense on the scramble drill. In the Packers game the offense finally started opening up when he hit Baldwin on a seam route from the center of the pocket. The whole "short" thing has to go away. He has a higher release point than Rivers and has great vision.

 

[cdumler7]

That's not what's been happening the first two games though. He's had plenty of throws out of the pocket so far. The problem is that because most of them are so slow to develop he has to roll out because he has someone in his face. You can't base an entire offense on the scramble drill. In the Packers game the offense finally started opening up when he hit Baldwin on a seam route from the center of the pocket. The whole "short" thing has to go away. He has a higher release point than Rivers and has great vision.

It is not the release point that is the major problem. The problem is having OL guys who are 6'5" in front of him making it a little harder to see down the middle. They have done plenty of studies that show that Wilson in the pocket doesn't like to use the middle of the field and many think a big reason is because that area of the field is much harder for him to see and he struggles to trust what he does see in that area. Like I said all players in the league have their weaknesses and all QB's (other than Rodgers) have certain throws that they just don't like to make.