Its never easy being a Pirates fan, huh

[evolver115]

that is not achievable, you're not really putting forth a reasonable position.

If you say that replay should be there to correct those INEVITABLE mistakes, then I agree with you and that is a league issue, not something you blame an ump for on a decision made in real time.

It isn't unreasonable to expect the home-plate umpire to know whether a play at the plate was legitimate, or not. Yes, sometimes human error factors in. In this particular instance, the umpire had an unobstructed view of the play, it occurred at least three feet from where the runner needed to be to have been ruled to be safe and it wasn't close. I can't give him a reasonable excuse in this case. He needs to own it.

Both teams' deserved better than this. After putting forth two games worth of effort over 6 1/2 hours of play, and to have the game decided on bad call at the plate... no excuse, at least not in his case.

 

[Slimpikins]

It isn't unreasonable to expect the home-plate umpire to know whether a play at the plate was legitimate, or not. Yes, sometimes human error factors in. In this particular instance, the umpire had an unobstructed view of the play, it occurred at least three feet from where the runner needed to be to have been ruled to be safe and it wasn't close. I can't give him a reasonable excuse in this case. He needs to own it.

Both teams' deserved better than this. After putting forth two games worth of effort over 6 1/2 hours of play, and to have the game decided on bad call at the plate... no excuse, at least not in his case.

What should his punishment be?


I agree it was a terrible call but I'm not sure what you can realistically expect to happpen. MLB is the league that doesn't allow replay in stadiums on close calls as to not upstage the umps. No other sport does that.

EDIT: Replay on the big screen, not official video review.

 

[Comeds]

See, I look at that the exact opposite way. Calling balls and strikes is a very gray area. So much comes into play. The pitcher, his repertoire, his arm angle, his velocity. The batter, his height, his batting stance. Etc. Etc. Calling balls and strikes needs to remain in control of umpires.

When it's a play at the bag, it's black and white. There is no gray area. Was he safe, or was he out?

A certain pitcher, his arm angle, his repertoire, nor his velocity should have anything to do with whether its a ball or a strike. Its all about where the pitch is when it crosses the plate in relation to the batter. Things like you mentioned certainly can affect the umpire's judgement, just another reason I'd think about letting computer call it.

Strike zones shouldn't shrink as the game goes on, they shouldn't fluctuate depending on the situation and a marquee pitcher pitcher shouldn't get more respect from the umpire than a rookie in first game yet all those things happen all the time.

 

[awaz]

What should his punishment be?

I agree it was a terrible call but I'm not sure what you can realistically expect to happpen. MLB is the league that doesn't allow replay in stadiums on close calls as to not upstage the umps. No other sport does that.

EDIT: Replay on the big screen, not official video review.

wow i didn't know that.. i noticed that i wasn't getting the replays i wanted of close calls when i went to a couple pirates games earlier this year.. didnt know it was actually a rule not to show them

 

[evolver115]

I'd prefer to see that b/c I think that the balls/strikes calls at the plate have MUCH more of an impact on each game than the occasional blown safe/out call at a base. Besides that, it's a much more difficult task for a human to accomplish. Determining the height and width where a ball crosses an invisible plane all while the ball is tiny and traveling 80-100 mph is a task much better suited to a machine than our eyes and brain. Especially when a machine would make that plane uniform and different umpire's have different interpretations of how large that plane is.

I have to disagree with you on this one. The ability of the umpire to call balls and strikes is probably the most important part of his job. You cannot take that away from them.

Think of it this way.

A player who has been in the game for five or six years is on a 2-2 count. This player has played in all-star games, maybe won a batting title, played in the WS... there is a pitch that's on the corner, or on the black... most of the time, that player has earned respect in the game and the ump moves it to 3-2. He earned that because of his accomplishments.

This can work in reverse, as well. A rookie 1st baseman in on a 0-2 count. Meanwhile, the pitcher is in his 12 season, an established vet. He drops a backdoor slider in there just off the black.. the ump calls the rookie out. That happens all the time, as well. This respect is a part of the human element of the game that cannot be taken out of it.

This situation occurs countless times throughout a game. Like i said earlier, calling balls and strikes is a gray area. A computer wouldn't be able to discriminate between this gray area. It would be black and white.

 

[elocomotive]

Yes, sometimes human error factors in

...In this particular instance, the umpire had an unobstructed view of the play, it occurred at least three feet from where the runner needed to be to have been ruled to be safe and it wasn't close. I can't give him a reasonable excuse in this case. He needs to own it.

... no excuse, at least not in his case.

So you accept that errors are part of the job (glad we cleared that up), but its unacceptable for that error to coincide with (1) the last play of the game or (2) this particular play in this specific game.

As to (1), it's impossible to assure people that no errors will occur in a particular inning or at a particular point in the game. If it were, it would be possible to assure no errors ever, which we've already established is impossible.

As to (2), sometimes guys miss tags. I had to watch the replay several times. I'm about 95% sure he clipped his leg with his glove, but I can't say with absolute and unequivocal certainty, which allows me to understand how an ump viewing this all in real-time COULD make the mistake.

 

[Comeds]

I have to disagree with you on this one. The ability of the umpire to call balls and strikes is probably the most important part of his job. You cannot take that away from them.

Think of it this way.

A player who has been in the game for five or six years is on a 2-2 count. This player has played in all-star games, maybe won a batting title, played in the WS... there is a pitch that's on the corner, or on the black... most of the time, that player has earned respect in the game and the ump moves it to 3-2. He earned that because of his accomplishments.

This can work in reverse, as well. A rookie 1st baseman in on a 0-2 count. Meanwhile, the pitcher is in his 12 season, an established vet. He drops a backdoor slider in there just off the black.. the ump calls the rookie out. That happens all the time, as well. This respect is a part of the human element of the game that cannot be taken out of it.

This situation occurs countless times throughout a game. Like i said earlier, calling balls and strikes is a gray area. A computer wouldn't be able to discriminate between this gray area. It would be black and white.

Those are two situations that do happen all the time and absolutely should not. An umpire making a willful wrong call (and in your example make no mistake thats exactly what he is doing, being wrong on purpose) because a of respect or lack thereof is much worse than an umpire blowing a call, even one like last night.

It should be black and white.

 

[awaz]

A certain pitcher, his arm angle, his repertoire, nor his velocity should have anything to do with whether its a ball or a strike. Its all about where the pitch is when it crosses the plate in relation to the batter. Things like you mentioned certainly can affect the umpire's judgement, just another reason I'd think about letting computer call it.

Strike zones shouldn't shrink as the game goes on, they shouldn't fluctuate depending on the situation and a marquee pitcher pitcher shouldn't get more respect from the umpire than a rookie in first game yet all those things happen all the time.

my guess, from how baseball players, managers, analysts, etc. act, is that they want small biases like this.. they want players to earn respect and get benefits from it.. baseball is up there with the nba in celebrating its stars, maybe even more so.. every milestone is counted down for every marquee player.. they WANT derek jeter to hit is 3000th hit, they WANT verlander to throw no-hitters, so they get the benefit of the doubt from the umps.. it just seems like the attitude of baseball to me.. earn the respect and get the advantages.. big names in baseball get advantages so they can stay big names.. and i think the MLB wants that

 

[evolver115]

A certain pitcher, his arm angle, his repertoire, nor his velocity should have anything to do with whether its a ball or a strike. Its all about where the pitch is when it crosses the plate in relation to the batter. Things like you mentioned certainly can affect the umpire's judgement, just another reason I'd think about letting computer call it.

Strike zones shouldn't shrink as the game goes on, they shouldn't fluctuate depending on the situation and a marquee pitcher pitcher shouldn't get more respect from the umpire than a rookie in first game yet all those things happen all the time.

It's a fabric of baseball, though. It is probably the one thing in baseball that sets it apart more than every other major sport in North America.

 

[elocomotive]

A player who has been in the game for five or six years is on a 2-2 count. This player has played in all-star games, maybe won a batting title, played in the WS... there is a pitch that's on the corner, or on the black... most of the time, that player has earned respect in the game and the ump moves it to 3-2. He earned that because of his accomplishments.

This can work in reverse, as well. A rookie 1st baseman in on a 0-2 count. Meanwhile, the pitcher is in his 12 season, an established vet. He drops a backdoor slider in there just off the black.. the ump calls the rookie out. That happens all the time, as well. This respect is a part of the human element of the game that cannot be taken out of it.

Your argument is seriously that they can't use machines b/c all-stars deserve the wrong call at the plate to go for them b/c they are all-stars and rookies deserve the wrong call to go against them b/c they are rookies?

Wow. In that case, the ump got the call right last night b/c the veteran runner (Lugo) was given the proper respect over the rookie catcher (McKenry).

 

[elocomotive]

It should be black and white.

Michael Jackson agrees. Hee hee!! Oww!!!

 

[Darkstone42]

So you accept that errors are part of the job (glad we cleared that up), but its unacceptable for that error to coincide with (1) the last play of the game or (2) this particular play in this specific game.

As to (1), it's impossible to assure people that no errors will occur in a particular inning or at a particular point in the game. If it were, it would be possible to assure no errors ever, which we've already established is impossible.

As to (2), sometimes guys miss tags. I had to watch the replay several times. I'm about 95% sure he clipped his leg with his glove, but I can't say with absolute and unequivocal certainty, which allows me to understand how an ump viewing this all in real-time COULD make the mistake.

I think it's more that you can't blow the obvious calls. Even if there is some debate about whether or not McKenry tagged him (he did), you can't call a guy safe because you think the tag was maybe missed, perhaps. If the ball beats the man by that much and you can't see space between the glove and the player, the call has to be out. If this same play occurred just off the edge of the plate, if the throw just beat Lugo, if it was a bang-bang play, then he would have been justified in calling him safe.

If there is any doubt in your mind as an umpire, you have to go with the call which least impacts the game or the call which is more likely correct. The call Meals made was both less likely correct and had the greater significant impact on the game. It ended the game. Unless Jerry Meals can stand there and say he saw space between McKenry's glove and Lugo's leg at the apparent point of the tag, and elsewhere, then he made a punishably bad call.

Now for punishment, I would just fine him or suspend him for a couple games. Nothing big, just a little "we hold our umpires accountable for their performances" type of thing. Maximum suspension of two games, maximum fine of two games' pay. That's all.

And then fire Joe West. Not because of this call, but because he sucks at his job and everyone hates him. Firing Joe West would probably prevent Jerry Meals from making bad calls ever again, that's how bad Joe West is.

 

[evolver115]

Those are two situations that do happen all the time and absolutely should not. An umpire making a willful wrong call (and in your example make no mistake thats exactly what he is doing, being wrong on purpose) because a of respect or lack thereof is much worse than an umpire blowing a call, even one like last night.

It should be black and white.

It's a good debate topic, that's for sure. I just look at it from the standpoint that if you took the calling of balls and strikes away from the umpires, it would change the game in such a drastic way that you wouldn't recognize it, anymore.

If you took the control away from the umpire on a play at the plate, where a run is going to be scored or not scored, I'm not as sure it would impact the game in such a drastic way.

 

[Comeds]

It's a fabric of baseball, though. It is probably the one thing in baseball that sets it apart more than every other major sport in North America.

Its not supposed to be. Seriously you are complaining about a bad call last night and stating that changes need to be made but at the same time you are arguing that star/established players should get preferential treatment.

In that case maybe your team should have had a more respected veteran behind the plate that late in the game. Bad managing.

(also I think you can find preferential treatment for stars in every league in NA)

 

[evolver115]

Your argument is seriously that they can't use machines b/c all-stars deserve the wrong call at the plate to go for them b/c they are all-stars and rookies deserve the wrong call to go against them b/c they are rookies?

Wow. In that case, the ump got the call right last night b/c the veteran runner (Lugo) was given the proper respect over the rookie catcher (McKenry).

see my post above

 

[Darkstone42]

I hate bias on balls and strikes. Everyone should be on even footing. Giving benefits to established stars also hurts small market teams and helps large market ones, because small market teams are more likely to be relying on young players whereas large market teams are relying on established veterans they sign as free agents. It doesn't just hurt individual players, it hurts entire teams, and has significant bearing in the standings when all is said and done.

But it won't change, because the league wants the large market teams to win and the small market teams to lose. That means more money.

 

[evolver115]

Its not supposed to be. Seriously you are complaining about a bad call last night and stating that changes need to be made but at the same time you are arguing that star/established players should get preferential treatment.

In that case maybe your team should have had a more respected veteran behind the plate that late in the game. Bad managing.

(also I think you can find preferential treatment for stars in every league in NA)

scoring a run to win the game, and getting from a 1-2 count to a 2-2 count isn't the same thing.

 

[awaz]

Its not supposed to be. Seriously you are complaining about a bad call last night and stating that changes need to be made but at the same time you are arguing that star/established players should get preferential treatment.

In that case maybe your team should have had a more respected veteran behind the plate that late in the game. Bad managing.

(also I think you can find preferential treatment for stars in every league in NA)

i really think thats the baseball mentality though.. that stars/vets deserve preferential treatment and rookies have work to do

right or wrong i think thats the way baseball thinks

 

[elocomotive]

I think it's more that you can't blow the obvious calls. Even if there is some debate about whether or not McKenry tagged him (he did), you can't call a guy safe because you think the tag was maybe missed, perhaps. If the ball beats the man by that much and you can't see space between the glove and the player, the call has to be out. If this same play occurred just off the edge of the plate, if the throw just beat Lugo, if it was a bang-bang play, then he would have been justified in calling him safe.

If there is any doubt in your mind as an umpire, you have to go with the call which least impacts the game or the call which is more likely correct.

I understand your point and good post, but how do we know that in Meals' mind he didn't think with 100% certainty the tag was missed? In that situation, he wouldn't even be considering those other factors. Perception of what happened and what actually happened do not always align and this will always be the case for judgment calls that occur at high velocity. Your argument is solid if the umpire was unsure of what happened (especially if he observed Lugo's body language right after the tag), but that might not be the case here. In his mind, h might have been sure the tag was missed, even if it was the wrong call.

 

[ELYEAH82]

I dont see how anyone sees this as anything other than the Umpire getting this game over with. It seemed obvious to me he was going to make a safe call on any play at the plate if this one was called safe. Now I am not sure what type of punishment there should be but there should not be status quo when this happens. Players are suspended for arguing why not suspend this guy for a week without pay. Maybe next time he will ask for help before making this type of call.

The other thing that really bothers me is he wont even own it. He hasnt said yeah I missed it, he said he might have tagged him.