Its never easy being a Pirates fan, huh

[Comeds]

thats dumb. sure it gets people talking about baseball, but not in a positive light.

i suppose any publicity is good publicity.. but its affecting outcomes of games and is therefore dumb.

(not knocking you, knocking mlb)

In a case like this I guess I think its dumb but overall I don't. Do I want them to make the right call? Of course, and by a huge margin they normally do.
Would review have helped in this case? Probably, but I do not want every close call being subject to review and slowing the game down.

I love the NFL but the last two minutes of each half often slow to a crawl with booth reviews.

 

[awaz]

In a case like this I guess I think its dumb but overall I don't. Do I want them to make the right call? Of course, and by a huge margin they normally do.
Would review have helped in this case? Probably, but I do not want every close call being subject to review and slowing the game down.

I love the NFL but the last two minutes of each half often slow to a crawl with booth reviews.

oh no doubt. the last 2 minutes in football is almost enough to stop watching. but a simple allowance of reviewing close calls at home plate, like they did for fair/foul home runs (they did that right? i wasn't dreaming was i?) would fix the problem i think.. close calls at home happen... twice a game tops? if you have a guy in the booth (a la hockey) with a radio to the ump and it doesn't effect the speed of the game at all.. hell with most pitchers you could probably do the whole review without saying anything before the pitcher is ready to throw the next pitch!

reviewing balls/strikes or safe/out calls at every base would be ridiculous.. but IMO they should be able to review bang-bang plays at the plate and fair/foul homeruns

 

[dare2be]

no need to review balls/strikes. the technology is in place to make that completely automatic

 

[juliansteed]

the throw beat the runner by a mile, and the catcher was in position to make the call. that should've been an out

Agreed. I can see how he might not have been 100% that he tagged him. But I can't see how he could be 100% sure that he didn't. In a situation like that where you can't be sure, I think it would be wise to err on the side of common sense, which would be to call him out given how badly the throw had beat him to the plate.

That being said, a few people mentioned that there's no guarantee that the Pirates would have won anyway. Not only is that true but even if that was called an out, the odds still would have been in the Braves favor. That didn't appear to be the 3rd out and the Braves still had runners on with a chance to win as the home team. The Pirates would have had to get out of that inning just to get back to 50%. But some chance of winning would have still been better than no chance. That of course is not taking batting order, players out of the game, remaining pitchers etc. into account.

 

[awaz]

Agreed. I can see how he might not have been 100% that he tagged him. But I can't see how he could be 100% sure that he didn't. In a situation like that where you can't be sure, I think it would be wise to err on the side of common sense, which would be to call him out given how badly the throw had beat him to the plate.

That being said, a few people mentioned that there's no guarantee that the Pirates would have won anyway. Not only is that true but even if that was called an out, the odds still would have been in the Braves favor. That didn't appear to be the 3rd out and the Braves still had runners on with a chance to win as the home team. The Pirates would have had to get out of that inning just to get back to 50%. But some chance of winning would have still been better than no chance. That of course is not taking batting order, players out of the game, remaining pitchers etc. into account.

well said.

i didnt see this, but others have said that it was a slam dunk double play because (i forget who was the batter, just that he was pitching also) tripped on his way to first base, which would've been the 3rd out

 

[awaz]

no need to review balls/strikes. the technology is in place to make that completely automatic

oh speaking of that.. i dont wanna see that graphic on espn for every freakin pitch.. that was super annoying.. show it after the pitch, lord knows they have enough time, but not during the live game play.. thats very.. video-game looking.. if i wanted to watch a video game, i'd play the video game

 

[ELYEAH82]

That call didnt cost anyone a game in the standings. So yeah is was worse.

 

[ELYEAH82]

well said.

i didnt see this, but others have said that it was a slam dunk double play because (i forget who was the batter, just that he was pitching also) tripped on his way to first base, which would've been the 3rd out

The play at home would have been the 2nd out and the play at first with the runner flat on his face was going to be the last out of the inning

 

[pixburgher66]

Agreed. I can see how he might not have been 100% that he tagged him. But I can't see how he could be 100% sure that he didn't. In a situation like that where you can't be sure, I think it would be wise to err on the side of common sense, which would be to call him out given how badly the throw had beat him to the plate.

That being said, a few people mentioned that there's no guarantee that the Pirates would have won anyway. Not only is that true but even if that was called an out, the odds still would have been in the Braves favor. That didn't appear to be the 3rd out and the Braves still had runners on with a chance to win as the home team. The Pirates would have had to get out of that inning just to get back to 50%. But some chance of winning would have still been better than no chance. That of course is not taking batting order, players out of the game, remaining pitchers etc. into account.

This...and as was said, it would've basically been a double play, because Proctor tripped out of the box and was barely down the line when they called Lugo safe. Losing in a 19 inning game sucks enough, but you don't want to leave that game with any doubt about it...and there was plenty of doubt.

 

[Comeds]

Well at least we can all look at the bright side. At least it wasn't one of MLB's big payroll marquee teams that got screwed.

 

[evolver115]

my response in bold

Look, you just can't compare a regular job to reffing or umping. Those individuals are forced to make judgment calls of inches and milliseconds hundreds of times a night. Any ref or ump is going to get some calls wrong, especially with a game that took so long, some mental lapses are going to happen.That's just part of the job. Nobody is going to do it to perfection, and there are calls all the time that even with slow motion it's difficult to determine what the "right" call even is.

Sure i can. I work on a daily deadline. If I don't have my work done and submitted by 10pm each and every nite I'm at work, there will be hell to pay. I don't get second chances, or a "do better next time, bub". I would lose my job.

Jim Joyce blew a perfect game for a pitcher and he was considered one of the best at his job. Further proof that being an ump/ref is not a job where 100% accuracy is or should be expected or is even possible.

Something should happen to this guy if the league finds there have been problems with this guy far more often than most umps. Otherwise, it's just unfortunate timing and part of the game. Pirates had plenty of chances to win the game. They'll have plenty of chances to win the other 161 games they'll be involved in.

Something should happen to him regardless if he's found to have a track record of this, or not. There is zero accountability to be found in the umpires of today's MLB. It's past the time now where this can be allowed to continue. Joyce's egregious error last season is one more reason why some type of review process needs to be instituted into the game.

You can't say it's inexcusable if you conclude that mistakes are part of the position. And you can't blame a season filled with 4,374+ outs on just one of them. It's a sucky call, but that's an unavoidable part of the game as it currently stands.

Mistakes are part of any position that a human is part of the equation. However, itt is inexcusable because of the situation.. winning run ends game. There is zero margin for error in that situation. Not to mention the position... the play occurred at least three feet from home plate.

I'm more of the opinion that Jerry was tired and wanted to get off the field. I didn't get the impression from him while watching this replay that he 'just booted it'. He wanted off the field because he just umped 19 innings of baseball in Atlanta Georgia at the end of July.

There is no excuse for that, and this is just one more example of why the game of baseball needs to evolve to fit in with the 21st century. There needs to be some form of instant replay of plays decided at home plate, and or a home run(which they already have done).

And to those who will say you can't change the game because they want to preserve the human element.... let me remind you about the dollar amounts we are now dealing with in major league baseball. If your team wins a pennant, the windfall that can be expected to accompany that title is enormous. It's not 1911. We aren't watching guys who play baseball by night, and wait on tables during the day.

Maybe the umpires of today cannot hack it like the old-timers of yesteryear could. Times change. Just like we've seen in the NHL with the crackdown on head-hits, and the institution of replay. Times change.

As a favorite musician of mine said, "you can't be neutral on a moving train."

 

[dare2be]

oh speaking of that.. i dont wanna see that graphic on espn for every freakin pitch.. that was super annoying.. show it after the pitch, lord knows they have enough time, but not during the live game play.. thats very.. video-game looking.. if i wanted to watch a video game, i'd play the video game

yes, the graphic is annoying. but the graphic doesn't have to be broadcast in order to be utilized.

 

[Comeds]

yes, the graphic is annoying. but the graphic doesn't have to be broadcast in order to be utilized.

I'd actually rather see balls and strikes called by a computer before I'd want replay at home plate, though I am not sure I want to see that. I do at times lean in that direction.

 

[awaz]

yes, the graphic is annoying. but the graphic doesn't have to be broadcast in order to be utilized.

truth.

 

[elocomotive]

Yes, reffing is a tough ass job. But, so is my job, and I'm sure there are countless others on this board who can claim that, as well. I'm not given any free passes at work... That's inexcusable.

Yes, but it's not the same. All jobs have different measures for what is success. 100% accuracy is impossible because refs/umps are watching many people/objects at once and have to make the call instantly. There are going to be mistakes because they were watching the wrong thing or did not have the right angle to view it or thought they saw something different than what actually happened. Haven't you ever watched a game and thought 'that was a hit!!!' only to see the ball was foul by a few inches on the replay? If you want to fire every ref/ump that makes a mistake, you won't have any left, and you'll constantly have a bunch of new guys who make even more mistakes because they lack experience.

When you say something is "inexcusable" that is not acheivable, you're not really putting forth a reasonable position.

If you say that replay should be there to correct those INEVITABLE mistakes, then I agree with you and that is a league issue, not something you blame an ump for on a decision made in real time.

 

[awaz]

I'd actually rather see balls and strikes called by a computer before I'd want replay at home plate, though I am not sure I want to see that. I do at times lean in that direction.

i might not3 watch enough baseball, but i'm the exact opposite. to say a ball/strike call changed the outcome of a game is a big stretch, so mistakes in that area are ok

i understand, sort of, baseball's desire to keep the human element. especially homeplate ump's calling balls/strikes/strikeouts because its a noticeable part of the game.. the ump waiving his hands all crazy and making some weird tribal scream for a strikeout is an iconic part of baseball

plus balls/strikes are so frequent there's no way you could ever say the human element is gone as long as umps are calling balls and strikes

 

[evolver115]

I'd actually rather see balls and strikes called by a computer before I'd want replay at home plate, though I am not sure I want to see that. I do at times lean in that direction.

See, I look at that the exact opposite way. Calling balls and strikes is a very gray area. So much comes into play. The pitcher, his repertoire, his arm angle, his velocity. The batter, his height, his batting stance. Etc. Etc. Calling balls and strikes needs to remain in control of umpires.

When it's a play at the bag, it's black and white. There is no gray area. Was he safe, or was he out?

 

[elocomotive]

I'd actually rather see balls and strikes called by a computer before I'd want replay at home plate, though I am not sure I want to see that. I do at times lean in that direction.

I'd prefer to see that b/c I think that the balls/strikes calls at the plate have MUCH more of an impact on each game than the occasional blown safe/out call at a base. Besides that, it's a much more difficult task for a human to accomplish. Determining the height and width where a ball crosses an invisible plane all while the ball is tiny and traveling 80-100 mph is a task much better suited to a machine than our eyes and brain. Especially when a machine would make that plane uniform and different umpire's have different interpretations of how large that plane is.

 

[Comeds]

I'd prefer to see that b/c I think that the balls/strikes calls at the plate have MUCH more of an impact on each game than the occasional blown safe/out call at a base. Besides that, it's a much more difficult task for a human to accomplish. Determining the height and width where a ball crosses an invisible plane all while the ball is tiny and traveling 80-100 mph is a task much better suited to a machine than our eyes and brain. Especially when a machine would make that plane uniform and different umpire's have different interpretations of how large that plane is.

That's how I feel. I do not think its even close. I bet it affects far more games per season than any other area where there are judgement calls.

 

[elocomotive]

i understand, sort of, baseball's desire to keep the human element. especially homeplate ump's calling balls/strikes/strikeouts because its a noticeable part of the game.. the ump waiving his hands all crazy and making some weird tribal scream for a strikeout is an iconic part of baseball

plus balls/strikes are so frequent there's no way you could ever say the human element is gone as long as umps are calling balls and strikes

The umpire would still have to be there to to call time, allow pitchers/batters to leave the rubber/box, distribute balls, to make calls at the plate, and serve as the ultimate arbiter of a close decision.

You could have a mask with a blinking light inside that tells the ump ball or strike so they are still there to make the gestures and put on a big show on a called strike three.