Is Westbrook the most gifted guard in NBA history ?..

[tlance]

Those are 2 greats among greats for sure.
It'd be fun to see Westbrook with that great Lakers talent around him. We never saw him with such limited talent as Westbrook is playing with. How many other HOFers were on those great 80s Lakers; teams, at least 3.

Westbrook is the type of player who does more with less. We have seen him with elite talent. In fact, many thought OKC was the most talented roster in the league last year.

Hell, he had Durant, Harden and Ibaka at one point. He is NOT Magic Johnson. Westbrook need the ball constantly. Magic knew how and when to give it up to facilitate team ball movement. Westbrook has never been willing or able to do that.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Westbrook is the type of player who does more with less. We have seen him with elite talent. In fact, many thought OKC was the most talented roster in the league last year.

Hell, he had Durant, Harden and Ibaka at one point. He is NOT Magic Johnson. Westbrook need the ball constantly. Magic knew how and when to give it up to facilitate team ball movement. Westbrook has never been willing or able to do that.

The Thunder didn't have close to GS's talent last season. They had 2 great players, but none of their other players would crack The Warriors' top 8.
I would love to see what Durant, Westbrook and Harden could do together. I suspect it'd be a bad combination with Harden at SG though. I've said before if Harden had been traded for a great player and Durant kept, they might have had a championship core.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

The Thunder didn't have close to GS's talent last season. They had 2 great players, but none of their other players would crack The Warriors' top 8.
I would love to see what Durant, Westbrook and Harden could do together. I suspect it'd be a bad combination with Harden at SG though. I've said before if Harden had been traded for a great player and Durant kept, they might have had a championship core.

Clearly he wasn't as good as Magic at 19 or 20 as Johnson was at that age, but who was ? MJ didn't mature as a team player till he was well into his 20s, Westbrook is far better than the kid he was when Harden was in town.

 

[tlance]

The Thunder didn't have close to GS's talent last season. They had 2 great players, but none of their other players would crack The Warriors' top 8.
I would love to see what Durant, Westbrook and Harden could do together. I suspect it'd be a bad combination with Harden at SG though. I've said before if Harden had been traded for a great player and Durant kept, they might have had a championship core.

Not true.

Many basketball people said the ThNder were the most talented team. I agree.

KD is definitely the best player. We will call Russ and Curry a toss up. My opinion is that Russ is more talented, but Curry the better team player. In other words, OKC had the top 2 guys in terms of talent.

Ibaka is a starter on 80% of the teams in the league and Adams was better than Bogut last year. Kanter provided quality depth, Roberson was a defensive specialist and Dion WAiters (averaging like 20 a game this year) was 6th man.

Sure, GS had the superior bench, but let's not act like this wasn't close talent wise. GS was superior because they played better together. OKC's roster was nasty.

 

[tlance]

Clearly he wasn't as good as Magic at 19 or 20 as Johnson was at that age, but who was ? MJ didn't mature as a team player till he was well into his 20s, Westbrook is far better than the kid he was when Harden was in town.

I take Magic at 19 over Westbrook today. Just sayin.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I take Magic at 19 over Westbrook today. Just sayin.

Magic had unequaled instincts, I won't argue with that.
Put a 28 year old Westbrook running that amazing group of all stars though, IT might be more unstoppable than with Magic. With this guy having the ball I could see 3 truly great players being open on many plays.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Not true.

Many basketball people said the ThNder were the most talented team. I agree.

KD is definitely the best player. We will call Russ and Curry a toss up. My opinion is that Russ is more talented, but Curry the better team player. In other words, OKC had the top 2 guys in terms of talent.

Ibaka is a starter on 80% of the teams in the league and Adams was better than Bogut last year. Kanter provided quality depth, Roberson was a defensive specialist and Dion WAiters (averaging like 20 a game this year) was 6th man.

Sure, GS had the superior bench, but let's not act like this wasn't close talent wise. GS was superior because they played better together. OKC's roster was nasty.

Not a chance anybody other than Durant and Westbrook could have cracked the GS lineup and only Ibaka would be in their rotation. Whoever THEY were, they were wrong.

 

[tlance]

Not a chance anybody other than Durant and Westbrook could have cracked the GS lineup and only Ibaka would be in their rotation. Whoever THEY were, they were wrong.

Umm.

Adams.

Also, in the NBA the best players matter most. If you have the two best on the court with decent players around them (which OKC did) you should be damn near unbeatable.

just to recap your points here:

1: Westbrook is an all time great and may have been an upgrade over Magic for the Showtime Lakers (LOL)

2: GS was significantly more talented than OKC last year

Since KD is GS best player this year, how in the hell could both those recapped statements be true?

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Umm.

Adams.

Also, in the NBA the best players matter most. If you have the two best on the court with decent players around them (which OKC did) you should be damn near unbeatable.

just to recap your points here:

1: Westbrook is an all time great and may have been an upgrade over Magic for the Showtime Lakers (LOL)

2: GS was significantly more talented than OKC last year

Since KD is GS best player this year, how in the hell could both those recapped statements be true?

Well sure having Westbrook and Durant was a plus, that explains why they almost knocked off a much deeper GS team.
You've sort of moved the debate a bit though. The conversation was how good OK was other than Westbrook.
If you can stop blowing snot bubbles long enough to think, THIS 28 year old version of Westbrook might well have made those Laker teams stronger than they were with Magic. He is far more athletic and it wouldn't take a Magic act to get the ball to those guys. Westbrook would be impossible to cover without leaving all sorts of holes in defenses for Worthy, Jabbar and a host of near greats.
Also while Magic was the all time master at exploiting defenses. Westbrook breaks down defenses, that is a different thing and great athleticism does it like nothing else.

 

[tlance]

Well sure having Westbrook and Durant was a plus, that explains why they almost knocked off a much deeper GS team.
You've sort of moved the debate a bit though. The conversation was how good OK was other than Westbrook.
If you can stop blowing snot bubbles long enough to think, THIS 28 year old version of Westbrook might well have made those Laker teams stronger than they were with Magic. He is far more athletic and it wouldn't take a Magic act to get the ball to those guys. Westbrook would be impossible to cover without leaving all sorts of holes in defenses for Worthy, Jabbar and a host of near greats.
Also while Magic was the all time master at exploiting defenses. Westbrook breaks down defenses, that is a different thing and great athleticism does it like nothing else.

No. Seriously dude. Go back and look at what you just wrote.

The problem with wesbrook is that he needs the ball in his hands constantly to do his thing. That is why he and KD underachieved together and also why the Lakers would have been much much worse trading Magic for him. Those teams were so great because the ball moved and it moved between great players. Westbrook is a ball stopper. This is also why Curry fits better with KD than Westbrook ever did. Curry can play without the ball and he is willing to give it up.

I am not going to say any more because frankly it is ridiculous to be having this conversation.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

No. Seriously dude. Go back and look at what you just wrote.

The problem with wesbrook is that he needs the ball in his hands constantly to do his thing. That is why he and KD underachieved together and also why the Lakers would have been much much worse trading Magic for him. Those teams were so great because the ball moved and it moved between great players. Westbrook is a ball stopper. This is also why Curry fits better with KD than Westbrook ever did. Curry can play without the ball and he is willing to give it up.

I am not going to say any more because frankly it is ridiculous to be having this conversation.

They didn't underachieve, they got beat in a tough series by the winningest team in history over a season.
Westbrook doesn't need the ball constantly in his hands or he wouldn't have double digit assist.
Also, read what you posted, GS had a better record last year without Durant...da. Also Curry often disappears without the ball, it happened in last year's finals.
Yes, your post is quite ridiculous.
Westbrook would be impossible to defend with all of that Showtime talent around him. You seem inflexible in your thinking dude.

 

[gohusk]

No. Seriously dude. Go back and look at what you just wrote.

The problem with wesbrook is that he needs the ball in his hands constantly to do his thing. That is why he and KD underachieved together and also why the Lakers would have been much much worse trading Magic for him. Those teams were so great because the ball moved and it moved between great players. Westbrook is a ball stopper. This is also why Curry fits better with KD than Westbrook ever did. Curry can play without the ball and he is willing to give it up.

I am not going to say any more because frankly it is ridiculous to be having this conversation.

I don't see many problems with Westbrook this season. The guy's a freak. He isn't doing this with basketball skills. Don't get me wrong, his skills are solid. But this is him out-athleting everybody. The guy's one of the best athletes on the planet and he pulled off a triple-double average in the NBA. Jordan was the best athlete I'd ever seen before this year but as far as raw athleticism goes I'd have to say Westbrook is the best you're ever going to see. Other guys who were clearly better than him like Magic or Bird or Jordan or whoever just had better fundamental skills. T-D for an entire season. Absolutely unreal.

 

[gohusk]

Triple double for a season. This is like Joe D 58 game hit streak stuff. I'm not even a fan of his but this is one of the most impressive regular seasons I've ever seen from a player. Team takes a huge hit with Durant leaving and he pulls this off? Hats off. Anybody voting against him for MVP should just lose their vote.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I don't see many problems with Westbrook this season. The guy's a freak. He isn't doing this with basketball skills. Don't get me wrong, his skills are solid. But this is him out-athleting everybody. The guy's one of the best athletes on the planet and he pulled off a triple-double average in the NBA. Jordan was the best athlete I'd ever seen before this year but as far as raw athleticism goes I'd have to say Westbrook is the best you're ever going to see. Other guys who were clearly better than him like Magic or Bird or Jordan or whoever just had better fundamental skills. T-D for an entire season. Absolutely unreal.

No doubt the 3 you mentioned are all time great skilled, instinctive players. That's not to say Westbrook isn't very skilled though, you have to be a player to average 10 assist a game, he is also a good 3 pt shooter and he has the best footwork I've seen.

 

[ChrisWebber]

I think Westbrook is overrated. He shoots the ball way to much and it shows on his pitiful ts%.

I love Westbrook and I love his hustle and grit but he needs to quit chucking the ball up and run the Thunders offense efficiently. They have a ton of knock down shooters in Mcdermot and Abrines.. why not get them involved more in the offense? where is the ball movement? I don't watch the Thunder a ton but I notice a lot of iso and pick n rolls mainly designed for Westbrook to either score or pass it to Adams and Kanter. He may win the MVP award but I hate how inefficiently he plays the game.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I think Westbrook is overrated. He shoots the ball way to much and it shows on his pitiful ts%.

I love Westbrook and I love his hustle and grit but he needs to quit chucking the ball up and run the Thunders offense efficiently. They have a ton of knock down shooters in Mcdermot and Abrines.. why not get them involved more in the offense? where is the ball movement? I don't watch the Thunder a ton but I notice a lot of iso and pick n rolls mainly designed for Westbrook to either score or pass it to Adams and Kanter. He may win the MVP award but I hate how inefficiently he plays the game.

Yet he is #1 in PER ( Player Efficiency rating) in The NBA this season. His points per possession is excellent too.

 

[tlance]

Yet he is #1 in PER ( Player Efficiency rating) in The NBA this season. His points per possession is excellent too.

I have discussed at length why PER is flawed on other threads. Not doing it again here, but the short is that PER doesn't penalize enough for missed shots and TOs, so inefficient stat stuffers like Westbrook come out looking better than they should.

The league average player has a PER of 15. If it were calibrated so that the league average were 0, then Westbrook might not even be top 5 despite his gaudy stats.

One final point. Take for what it is worth.

Y! Fantasy has a player rater for player value in their 9 category fantasy leagues. The 9 cats they use are:

Fg%, ft%, 3s, Pts, Rebs, Asts, Stls, Blks, TOs

Westbrook, despite averaging 31.7, 10.7, 10.4, 2.5 3s and 1.7 steals is ranked 8th behind the following in order:

1: Kevin Durant (based in his averages pre injury)
2: Anthony Davis
3: Curry
4: Leonard
5: Antekoumpo
6: Harden
7: Towns

The reason he appears low on here are because of a poor Fg% on extreme volume and the fact that he would be setting the NBA record for most turnovers in a season if Harden didn't have more. Those things matter in real life, but they are overpowered in the PER calculations. Y! May overrate categories like blocks and steals, but they do penalize appropriately for the negatives.

Give Westbrook the MVP already. I don't care about that. But stop mentioning him among all time greats because he does not belong. If he were able to post numbers like these with a neutral FG% and say 4 TOs per game, and win something, I might get on board. Not like this, however.

As for KD and Russ underachieving, damn straight they did. They had 8 seasons together and produced 0 rings. They are both top 4 players. Name another partnership of two superstars (defined by consensus top 5 overall in the league) at their peak that played together for that long and failed to win a single title. I bet you can't.

Stockton and Malone were not both top 5 overall players before you go there. Stockton did have 2 first team all NBA selections, but in those years, only 1 center was selected, so Shaq and Hakeem were second and third team while Ewing was off the lists all together. Barkley was also 2nd team in both seasons where Stockton got first. They also happened to be the two years MJ was playing baseball.

 

[Wishbone]

No he's not, the feat is averaging a triple double, but he's having a great season in his own right.

Also Westbrook has now surpassed Harden in 3 point percentage.

 

[tlance]

They didn't underachieve, they got beat in a tough series by the winningest team in history over a season.
Westbrook doesn't need the ball constantly in his hands or he wouldn't have double digit assist.
Also, read what you posted, GS had a better record last year without Durant...da. Also Curry often disappears without the ball, it happened in last year's finals.
Yes, your post is quite ridiculous.
Westbrook would be impossible to defend with all of that Showtime talent around him. You seem inflexible in your thinking dude.

Wrong again.

He has double digit assists This year because he has ball in his hands constantly.

How else do you explain the fact that he is averaging almost 2 assists per game more than his previous career high AFTER losing one of the best pure scorers in NBA history as his teammate?

It isn't because he has become better passer. His assist to TO ratio is just 1.9, which is not very good.

GS may have posted a better record last year, but they are a better team this year. They do not care about their regular season record this year.

There is only one person on this thread making ridiculous posts, and it isn't me.

 

[tlance]

I don't see many problems with Westbrook this season. The guy's a freak. He isn't doing this with basketball skills. Don't get me wrong, his skills are solid. But this is him out-athleting everybody. The guy's one of the best athletes on the planet and he pulled off a triple-double average in the NBA. Jordan was the best athlete I'd ever seen before this year but as far as raw athleticism goes I'd have to say Westbrook is the best you're ever going to see. Other guys who were clearly better than him like Magic or Bird or Jordan or whoever just had better fundamental skills. T-D for an entire season. Absolutely unreal.

I agree. Great athlete and absolutely relentless.