Is Westbrook the most gifted guard in NBA history ?..

[tlance]

No doubt the 3 you mentioned are all time great skilled, instinctive players. That's not to say Westbrook isn't very skilled though, you have to be a player to average 10 assist a game, he is also a good 3 pt shooter and he has the best footwork I've seen.

Now you have proven that you know nothing about basketball. Best footwork you have ever seen? Really? Me and a million other slow white guys have better footwork than Russell Westbrook. He wins because of freakish athleticism.

Now guys like Jordan and Kobe had both athleticism and fantastic footwork. Westbrook does not stand out in that regard.

 

[Scapegoat]

Sure they could.

MJ played point for a stretch of 10 games under Doug Collins in the 80s and recorded 7 triple doubles. Magic had pretty sick lines for full seasons, but never played on a team so devoid of offensive talent.

If Magic or MJ had TRIED to average a triple double, they probably could have. But, it would not have been in the best interest of their teams.

Westbrook might be the most physically gifted guard I have ever seen, but he isn't the best.

Probably true. But he isn't done.

 

[Scapegoat]

I agree. I think it was Larry Bird who said..."I could have averaged 40 if I wanted to, but I thought the point was to win games."

And the Thunder have won. They're 32-9 when Westbrook records a triple-double, and 13-25 when he doesn't. (If he'd just get his act together and triple-double all 82 games, the Thunder could've been on a 64-18 pace this season). There's an impact and an influence to Westbrook's statistical dominance, because as much as he has wanted it, it has also been necessary. The Thunder were stripped clean in the summer, and Westbrook was left to shoulder the burden.

 

[Scapegoat]

No. It's not even all that close. The fact that James Harden is within striking distance of the same thing Westbrook is doing despite the fact that Harden doesn't actively seek out rebounds the way Westbrook does basically renders the discussion mute. It's a great accomplishment, he should win the MVP, but its also circumstantial

But Westbrook's rebounding was put under the microscope. Of his 10.7 rebounds per game, 8.6 are defined by the NBA's stats tracking as "uncontested," the highest number in the league. Before you get in a huff, though, Westbrook's uncontested rebound percentage is 80.3; James Harden's is 79.4, LeBron James' is 77.1.

 

[Scapegoat]

Lebron isn't aggressive? Lebron doesn't have drive? LMAO. You have no idea what you are talking about.

RW STILL can't shoot, he is just shooting at much higher volume bc that is what his team needs from him. He is shooting 7 3 pointers a game at 34%. His overall FG% is the 3rd lowest of his career. He is a great player and he has great athleticism but lets not make him out something he isn't. He is a high volume shooter that shoots at a low percentage.

RK

PLAYER TEAM GP PPG 3PM 3PA 3PM 3PA 3P% 2PM 2PA 2P% PPS FG%

James Harden, SG HOU 78 29.2 3.2 9 251 727 .345 404 762 .530 1.53 .524
Russell Westbrook, PG OKC 79 31.7 2.5 7 194 566 .343 611 1333 .458 1.32 .475

 

[Scapegoat]

Normal season? Harden is virtually doing the same lol

Harden is close. But he still didn't do it. That's why people remember Oscar's triple double season. Because he didn't just get close.

 

[tlance]

Probably true. But he isn't done.

I agree Scape. His accomplishment is extremely impressive. Nobody in the league attacks as relentlessly as Westbrook and that is why he has achieved this milestone.

Still, dudes on this thread are trying to compare him to Magic and MJ when he isn't even the best player in the NBA today. Best season, yes. Best player, no.

 

[Scapegoat]

I agree Scape. His accomplishment is extremely impressive. Nobody in the league attacks as relentlessly as Westbrook and that is why he has achieved this milestone.

Still, dudes on this thread are trying to compare him to Magic and MJ when he isn't even the best player in the NBA today. Best season, yes. Best player, no.

I believe we are watching a season that will be talked about for decades. As much as I think he deserves the MVP. 50 years from now no one will remember who won the MVP but everyone will remember Russell Westbrook's season. Just like in 1961.

 

[tlance]

I believe we are watching a season that will be talked about for decades. As much as I think he deserves the MVP. 50 years from now no one will remember who won the MVP but everyone will remember Russell Westbrook's season. Just like in 1961.

I agree with that too. He will win MVP now. I think it is locked up.

 

[trojanfan12]

The problem with wesbrook is that he needs the ball in his hands constantly to do his thing. That is why he and KD underachieved together and also why the Lakers would have been much much worse trading Magic for him.

^^^THIS^^^

Magic had the ball in his hands a lot...he was the PG. The difference is that, as you point out, he didn't need the ball all of the time to do his thing.

The biggest difference between Magic and Westbrook is that Magic was also great at the "hockey assist." He could see that while he may not have the right angle to get the ball to the guy with the best chance to score, he could also see which of his teammates did have the best angle and would get that guy the ball. It likely cost him a few hundred assists over the course of his career, but it made the Lakers an even better team overall.

If Magic got his assists the same way Westbrook does, he'd have averaged more assists, but the Lakers as team, wouldn't have been as good.

 

[trojanfan12]

And the Thunder have won. They're 32-9 when Westbrook records a triple-double, and 13-25 when he doesn't. (If he'd just get his act together and triple-double all 82 games, the Thunder could've been on a 64-18 pace this season). There's an impact and an influence to Westbrook's statistical dominance, because as much as he has wanted it, it has also been necessary. The Thunder were stripped clean in the summer, and Westbrook was left to shoulder the burden.

I agree. I'm on Westbrook's side in this. Some folks are saying that he just a stat stuffer. I disagree and say that he's doing exactly what he needs to do for the Thunder to win. The difference in their record between when he records a triple double and doesn't is too vast to make the argument that the Thunder would be better off if he had fewer triple doubles.

If each record was closer to .500, then I could see the argument that he's chasing stats. But a 19 win difference between the 2 tells me that he is doing what the Thunder need him to do.

He's in a situation similar to Kobe when Shaq left. He has a bunch of guys who would be fighting for the worst record in the league if he wasn't on the team and he's going to get them to the playoffs.

What will be interesting is to see if learns the same lesson Kobe did and will be willing to share the ball more if/when he gets better players around him.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

I am no basketball savant when it comes to the NBA game (Heck I don't even have a team) but it seems incredibly obvious the departure of Durant creates an offensive vacuum that Westbrook had to fill. That's going to mean a lot of volume both in terms of shots and plays that go right through him; there are your points, assists, and even some rebounds right then and there. There's no doubt he's an absolutely phenomenal player, but there's a reason he is permitted to get those numbers and Jordan for fun did not.

 

[Scapegoat]

Westbrook is the type of player who does more with less. We have seen him with elite talent. In fact, many thought OKC was the most talented roster in the league last year.

Hell, he had Durant, Harden and Ibaka at one point. He is NOT Magic Johnson. Westbrook need the ball constantly. Magic knew how and when to give it up to facilitate team ball movement. Westbrook has never been willing or able to do that.

They were to young and had 3 seasons with serious injuries. If they had been put together in the '80s when there wasn't the free agency issue there is today and players stayed with the team that drafted them more then the Thunder would have won a championship if not more. Harden wasn't even a starter. Also the "showtime" Lakers had several HOF and just really good players in their prime. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
As far as last season the Thunder were up 3-1 on Gs and Durant gave up because he knew he was going to play for Gs this season. He didn't play with the urgency and desperation of a player who might never get back to that position.

 

[Scapegoat]

I am no basketball savant when it comes to the NBA game (Heck I don't even have a team) but it seems incredibly obvious the departure of Durant creates an offensive vacuum that Westbrook had to fill. That's going to mean a lot of volume both in terms of shots and plays that go right through him; there are your points, assists, and even some rebounds right then and there. There's no doubt he's an absolutely phenomenal player, but there's a reason he is permitted to get those numbers and Jordan for fun did not.

I disagree. Westbrook is not the only player in the past 56 years to be the only good player on a team. Also Jordan was in the same position as Westbrook for several years. He didn't always have Pippen.

 

[trojanfan12]

I disagree. Westbrook is not the only player in the past 56 years to be the only good player on a team. Also Jordan was in the same position as Westbrook for several years. He didn't always have Pippen.

Not sure what there was to disagree with in that post. He pointed out that Westbrook is getting the numbers he is because he has to, which is absolutely correct. MJ's overall numbers came down a little when Pippen emerged and he had a better supporting cast. The same thing happened with Kobe, when the Lakers lost Shaq. His numbers went up considerably. Then, when Bynum emerged as a player and they were able to get Pau his numbers came down because he had help.

If/when the Thunder are able to add some talent around Westbrook, his numbers should also come down a bit. At least I'd hope so, since it would be better for him and the team. What he's doing has made for an amazing season, but it's not sustainable over a long period of time.

 

[Scapegoat]

Not sure what there was to disagree with in that post. He pointed out that Westbrook is getting the numbers he is because he has to, which is absolutely correct. MJ's overall numbers came down a little when Pippen emerged and he had a better supporting cast. The same thing happened with Kobe, when the Lakers lost Shaq. His numbers went up considerably. Then, when Bynum emerged as a player and they were able to get Pau his numbers came down because he had help.

If/when the Thunder are able to add some talent around Westbrook, his numbers should also come down a bit. At least I'd hope so, since it would be better for him and the team. What he's doing has made for an amazing season, but it's not sustainable over a long period of time.

The disagreement is that op said Jordan wasn't permitted to get the same numbers that Westbrook has gotten. But the truth is he was and didn't.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Now you have proven that you know nothing about basketball. Best footwork you have ever seen? Really? Me and a million other slow white guys have better footwork than Russell Westbrook. He wins because of freakish athleticism.

Now guys like Jordan and Kobe had both athleticism and fantastic footwork. Westbrook does not stand out in that regard.

Stop trying so hard, you've proven you're an idiot many times over.
So you have better footwork than Westbrook, calling that a croc is an insult to crocs everywhere.
If you really want to understand feet, watch them, and only them when a player is in every sort of move and situation.
Westbrook almost never gets his tangled, or loses his center of balance, even on drives where he is cut off by multiple defenders. He not only keeps his balance, he comes down more often than not in near perfect alignment to continue running or defending. It's like watching a cat, it doesn't look practiced, it seems remarkably innate.
Calling that athleticism just shows how limited your vocabulary and knowledge of sports/athletics truly is.

 

[trojanfan12]

The disagreement is that op said Jordan wasn't permitted to get the same numbers that Westbrook has gotten. But the truth is he was and didn't.

Jordan, like Kobe, wasn't a point guard. So most of what he did was through his scoring. Westbrook may be a "score first" point guard, but he is still a point guard, so it would make sense that he would have more assists.

In the 4 seasons prior to the emergence of Pippen, he averaged 35 points and 6 assists per game. Had he been a PG, I would expect that his numbers would be closer to Westbrooks 30 and 10.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

The disagreement is that op said Jordan wasn't permitted to get the same numbers that Westbrook has gotten. But the truth is he was and didn't.

I believe I'm OP and I don't believe OP made the claim, I'm not sure OP even understands your point.

 

[Scapegoat]

Jordan, like Kobe, wasn't a point guard. So most of what he did was through his scoring. Westbrook may be a "score first" point guard, but he is still a point guard, so it would make sense that he would have more assists.

In the 4 seasons prior to the emergence of Pippen, he averaged 35 points and 6 assists per game. Had he been a PG, I would expect that his numbers would be closer to Westbrooks 30 and 10.

That could be true. My point is simply he didn't. Just like no other player in the past 56 years. We could come up with reasons that players didn't do things all day long.