Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[msgkings322]

My argument if I were to vote for Bonds would be, his numbers and defense up until 1998, when he allegedly started taking steroids were pretty outstanding. Maybe he wouldn't have been the most prolific home run hitter of all time but he was still an all around great player.

In terms of best I've ever watched play the game, obviously I'm arguing on Barry Bonds home turf here, but I would give the edge to Ken Griffey Jr (who I don't believe ever took anything).

Bonds is the best I've ever seen, and Griffey is close. But you know who belongs on that list too? Bo Jackson...seriously. That guy could do stuff I've never seen another player do. I think of him the way old timers describe seeing Willie Mays do things.

 

[SF11704]

Bonds is the best I've ever seen, and Griffey is close. But you know who belongs on that list too? Bo Jackson...seriously. That guy could do stuff I've never seen another player do. I think of him the way old timers describe seeing Willie Mays do things.

I need to qualify myself ... Mays was the most talented player I ever saw play the gamer but Bonds to me was the best overall performer I ever saw. Mays had a world of talent and excelled in every aspect of the game itself but Bonds played in a different era and under different circumstances. When I saw Mays play it was through the eyes of a kid. I marveled at the talent and always wished I had his skills whenever I walked out on to a baseball field, but with Bonds I was taken with the determination and level of play that he was able to provide under some rather stressful situations. Mays played to the kid in me while Bonds drew the admiration of an adult. Not sure I'm explaining this correctly. Just think that things are measured much different as a kid versus a season long time fan.

 

[gp956]

Thats why I choose to use the (worthless) 1 year protest ban. It carries a little extra weight if you are inducted your first year. Denying these guys THAT honor is enough of a protest, in my eyes.

At the same time, you can really only compare their numbers to their peers. Comparing Bonds' 73 to Marris' 61 makes no sense. That would be like comparing a hitter at Coors Field in the 90s to a hitter at the Astrodome in the 90s with an even eye.

Protesting what, exactly? No rules against PED when these guys played. For me, making moral arguments with regard to PED use prior to 2004 should disqualify anyone from voting on the HOF.

 

[tzill]

Protesting what, exactly? No rules against PED when these guys played. For me, making moral arguments with regard to PED use prior to 2004 should disqualify anyone from voting on the HOF.

This.

::stands on chair clapping::

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Another thing that bugs me about the HOF voters, is the jackass or jackasses that won't vote for a guy because they don't believe anyone should ever get 100% of the vote. There are some players that there is no question, should abosolutely be in the HOF. For example when Derek Jeter retires. Guy has had an unbelievable career, multiple championships, all time hits leader for the Yanks, their Captain, etc. He will not get 100% of the vote. Why? What is that proving?

 

[gp956]

Biggio was the best 2nd baseman of his generation. If you're comparing his stats to those of guys at power hitting positions it's foolish. What is he a 7 time all star? 4 gold gloves, good at the plate. He's in.

Old-schoolers will put him in, no doubt. 3000 hits, and playing for one team carry a lot of weight.

Would you rank Biggio ahead of Jeff Kent?

 

[msgkings322]

Another thing that bugs me about the HOF voters, is the jackass or jackasses that won't vote for a guy because they don't believe anyone should ever get 100% of the vote. There are some players that there is no question, should abosolutely be in the HOF. For example when Derek Jeter retires. Guy has had an unbelievable career, multiple championships, all time hits leader for the Yanks, their Captain, etc. He will not get 100% of the vote. Why? What is that proving?

Man, even Babe Ruth didn't get on 100% of the ballots. It's a weird process, just like MVP and Gold Glove and all the other popularity votes. It's also part of what makes baseball fun, arguing about all this stuff.

But I agree anyone who doesn't vote for Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson, etc is a total idiot.

 

[calsnowskier]

Protesting what, exactly? No rules against PED when these guys played. For me, making moral arguments with regard to PED use prior to 2004 should disqualify anyone from voting on the HOF.

I expect this argument, but choose to agree to disagree. I see your point, and cannot argue against it.

However...

While there was not a rule against PEDs, it was still against the integrity of the game. Thus, a meaningless 1 year protest ban. I applied the same ban to McGwire in his first year, but he has been on my ballot ever since. Like I stated earlier, there is a special aura about guys who got in on their first try. I am denying this honor for the "big" guys of this era. My opinion and personal stance.

Bonds and Clemens will be on my ballot until they get in, after 2013.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Old-schoolers will put him in, no doubt. 3000 hits, and playing for one team carry a lot of weight.

Would you rank Biggio ahead of Jeff Kent?

In the mid-late 90s yes. Late 90s early 2000s, I'll give the nod to Kent.

 

[msgkings322]

Old-schoolers will put him in, no doubt. 3000 hits, and playing for one team carry a lot of weight.

Would you rank Biggio ahead of Jeff Kent?

And so they should. Nolan Ryan comes to mind, I bet his career WAR wasn't that hot, he lost a lot of games and walked a ton of people. And yet any HOF without him in it would be total bullshit.

 

[filosofy29]

And so they should. Nolan Ryan comes to mind, I bet his career WAR wasn't that hot, he lost a lot of games and walked a ton of people. And yet any HOF without him in it would be total bullshit.

Am I the only one that is NOT completely enamored with WAR? I mean don't get me wrong, I think it's a very useful metric, but.....

 

[msgkings322]

Am I the only one that is NOT completely enamored with WAR? I mean don't get me wrong, I think it's a very useful metric, but.....

You are definitely NOT the only one. On this board we may be a minority though.

 

[tzill]

Another thing that bugs me about the HOF voters, is the jackass or jackasses that won't vote for a guy because they don't believe anyone should ever get 100% of the vote. There are some players that there is no question, should abosolutely be in the HOF. For example when Derek Jeter retires. Guy has had an unbelievable career, multiple championships, all time hits leader for the Yanks, their Captain, etc. He will not get 100% of the vote. Why? What is that proving?

If by "Jeter" you mean "Bonds," then yeah.

 

[tzill]

Man, even Babe Ruth didn't get on 100% of the ballots. It's a weird process, just like MVP and Gold Glove and all the other popularity votes. It's also part of what makes baseball fun, arguing about all this stuff.

But I agree anyone who doesn't vote for Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson, etc is a total idiot.

If by "Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson" you mean "Barry Bonds," then yeah.

 

[gp956]

Man, even Babe Ruth didn't get on 100% of the ballots. It's a weird process, just like MVP and Gold Glove and all the other popularity votes. It's also part of what makes baseball fun, arguing about all this stuff.

But I agree anyone who doesn't vote for Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson, etc is a total idiot.

Not getting 100% of the votes back then was an artifact of when the HOF was created and the large back-log of deserving players.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

If by "Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson" you mean "Barry Bonds," then yeah.

Yes but Bonds has the steroid stigma attached to him so, although I still think you'd be a jackass not to vote for him, it's slightly more acceptable than not voting in Jeter automatically.

 

[tzill]

I expect this argument, but choose to agree to disagree. I see your point, and cannot argue against it.

However...

While there was not a rule against PEDs, it was still against the integrity of the game. Thus, a meaningless 1 year protest ban. I applied the same ban to McGwire in his first year, but he has been on my ballot ever since. Like I stated earlier, there is a special aura about guys who got in on their first try. I am denying this honor for the "big" guys of this era. My opinion and personal stance.

Bonds and Clemens will be on my ballot until they get in, after 2013.

Can't buy this argument. Isn't caffeine, or consulting a nutrionist, or advanced weight training, or microfracture surgery likewise "against the integrity of the game?"

I say no: the "integrity of the game" comes into play when guys cork bats, throw spitballs, BET ON THE GAMES, etc. Not what they do off the field to their bodies to get into the best position to win. Unless those things are banned by the rules of baseball. And until 2004, PEDs weren't banned.

 

[msgkings322]

Not getting 100% of the votes back then was an artifact of when the HOF was created and the large back-log of deserving players.

Um, not getting 100% meant that some idiots didn't put Babe Ruth on the ballot. I'm just sayin'.

 

[msgkings322]

If by "Jeter, or Mo Rivera, or Randy Johnson" you mean "Barry Bonds," then yeah.

I meant what I meant. I also think Bonds deserves to be in, easily, but I can see reasons to not vote for him. Can't think of a single reason not to vote for any of the 3 I mentioned.

 

[gp956]

And so they should. Nolan Ryan comes to mind, I bet his career WAR wasn't that hot, he lost a lot of games and walked a ton of people. And yet any HOF without him in it would be total bullshit.

Ryan is number 23 on the all-time pitcher WAR list? Is that high enough for you? Why don't you learn a little about WAR before you decide you don't like it?