Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[tzill]

Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling

No way Mattingly (not even 40 career WAR). Morris was essentially average over his career (105 ERA+) with less than 40 career WAR. Piazza is a lock (career 143 OPS+). Schilling should be in as well.

How can you possibly leave Bonds out? 182 career OPS+, 158 career WAR?

If Bonds isn't in the HOF, there should be no HOF.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

I dunno about Biggio. 62.1 career WAR doesn't do it for me.

Oh, and I'd add Schilling to my list as well.

You need to take the sabermetric blinders off and just use your common sense. The guy was as solid as the come.

 

[calsnowskier]

Agreed. The HOF is a baseball museum. You can't sanitize it into the Hall of Great Players Who Were Also Good Dudes -- if so, you'd have to throw out Cobb and many others.

It's classic fucking hypocrisy.

Thats why I choose to use the (worthless) 1 year protest ban. It carries a little extra weight if you are inducted your first year. Denying these guys THAT honor is enough of a protest, in my eyes.

At the same time, you can really only compare their numbers to their peers. Comparing Bonds' 73 to Marris' 61 makes no sense. That would be like comparing a hitter at Coors Field in the 90s to a hitter at the Astrodome in the 90s with an even eye.

 

[tzill]

Murphy before Piazza...fuck that.

Career 126 OPS+ is solid, but not elite, same with the career 42.6 WAR.

Nope.

 

[tzill]

You need to take the sabermetric blinders off and just use your common sense. The guy was as solid as the come.

He WAS solid, no doubt. However, this isn't the Hall of Solid, it's the Hall of Fame, wherein elite players are recognized.

Biggio ain't elite.

And THAT'S common sense.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Thats why I choose to use the (worthless) 1 year protest ban. It carries a little extra weight if you are inducted your first year. Denying these guys THAT honor is enough of a protest, in my eyes.

At the same time, you can really only compare their numbers to their peers. Comparing Bonds' 73 to Marris' 61 makes no sense. That would be like comparing a hitter at Coors Field in the 90s to a hitter at the Astrodome in the 90s with an even eye.

That's my big argument with the purists trying to compare generations and not jeopardizing the sanctity of the sport. We've raised and lowered pitchers mounds, parks have different dimensions, new technology and equipment is used, if it isn't steroids it was speed back in the 70s and 80s. A player in Fenway which has no foul territory will most likely put up better offensive numbers than a player in Oakland with tons of foul territory.

 

[calsnowskier]

I gotta agree that Biggio is in. He was a + catcher, then a ++ 2B, then a + CFer. He was a mainstay in the ASG and spent his entire career with 1 team.

He is a first-ballot, IMHO.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

He WAS solid, no doubt. However, this isn't the Hall of Solid, it's the Hall of Fame, wherein elite players are recognized.

Biggio ain't elite.

And THAT'S common sense.

Biggio was the best 2nd baseman of his generation. If you're comparing his stats to those of guys at power hitting positions it's foolish. What is he a 7 time all star? 4 gold gloves, good at the plate. He's in.

 

[calsnowskier]

That's my big argument with the purists trying to compare generations and not jeopardizing the sanctity of the sport. We've raised and lowered pitchers mounds, parks have different dimensions, new technology and equipment is used, if it isn't steroids it was speed back in the 70s and 80s. A player in Fenway which has no foul territory will most likely put up better offensive numbers than a player in Oakland with tons of foul territory.

Carney and Bill take offense to that comment...

 

[powerchord86]

No way Mattingly (not even 40 career WAR). Morris was essentially average over his career (105 ERA+) with less than 40 career WAR. Piazza is a lock (career 143 OPS+). Schilling should be in as well.

How can you possibly leave Bonds out? 182 career OPS+, 158 career WAR?

If Bonds isn't in the HOF, there should be no HOF.

 

[filosofy29]

That's my big argument with the purists trying to compare generations and not jeopardizing the sanctity of the sport. We've raised and lowered pitchers mounds, parks have different dimensions, new technology and equipment is used, if it isn't steroids it was speed back in the 70s and 80s. A player in Fenway which has no foul territory will most likely put up better offensive numbers than a player in Oakland with tons of foul territory.

That's something that I don't understand either with the baseball purists. Obviously, you can't do anything about the climate in San Francisco vs. the climate in Arizona, but if these numbers are so "hallowed", then why not at least start with every ball park being the same dimensions (HR fence, foul territory, etc.)??? Control the things you can control right?

 

[calsnowskier]

Does he get your vote in '14? '15?

what was your take on Niekro?

 

[filosofy29]

lol, you asshole. That's awesome though.

 

[filosofy29]

Does he get your vote in '14? '15?

what was your take on Niekro?

Dude was a AAAA player imhumbleo.....

 

[calsnowskier]

Dude was a AAAA player imhumbleo.....

At best.

But his uncle...

 

[powerchord86]

lol, you asshole. That's awesome though.

Yes, I am an asshole. But I appreciate your sense of humor sir.

 

[SF11704]

In my 57 years of being a fan (saying I started at 10) I haven't really encountered many 'purists' in the true sense of the word. Most of the 'purists' that I've come across are in reality part of a somwhat fanatical fan base for another team that is not winning and/or has a player on their respective team that isn't quite getting the same level of attention as the player in question. Many of the so called purists were clearly in the AROD corner when all of this started to unfold. These fans used the santify of the game to demean Bonds' accomplishments while at the same time raise the quality of ARODS contributions. That all seemed to fade somewhat when AROD was caught 'cheating' but to this day he is not looked at in the same light (level of purity) as Bonds and never will be. I personally don't care if he is never admitted into the HOF. To me he was the best player I had the enjoyment of watching play the game. IMHO I don't think he will ever be admitted into the HOF. I just don't believe anyone in the position of voting will want to be put in the position of defending their vote. I think many will think HOF but few will vote HOF.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

My argument if I were to vote for Bonds would be, his numbers and defense up until 1998, when he allegedly started taking steroids were pretty outstanding. Maybe he wouldn't have been the most prolific home run hitter of all time but he was still an all around great player.

In terms of best I've ever watched play the game, obviously I'm arguing on Barry Bonds home turf here, but I would give the edge to Ken Griffey Jr (who I don't believe ever took anything).

 

[tzill]

Biggio was the best 2nd baseman of his generation. If you're comparing his stats to those of guys at power hitting positions it's foolish. What is he a 7 time all star? 4 gold gloves, good at the plate. He's in.

You make valid points. I think there's an argument as to the best 2b of his generation with Number 21 The Truck Washer, but you may be right. For me, the 112 OPS+ just isn't enough. I put less value in ASG nods and GG awards b/c they are often the product of a popularity contest and not true talent. Nonetheless, I see the argument and guess we'll have to disagree.

 

[tzill]

So how much of his accomplishments were due to steroid use (which has never been proven, but let's assume he did use)?

20%? Subtract 20% of his numbers and he's STILL a lock HOF.

Lame...ass...argument.