Hate the DH? Don't think Ortiz belongs in the HOF? Bob Ryan and Edgar Martinez just shamed you...

[navamind]

Their career rate stats have been posted. Several times.

 

[navamind]

"Joe Carter had more 100 RBI seasons than Mickey Mantle!!!"

 

[Rock Strongo]

Their career rate stats have been posted. Several times.

i know, like edgars .266 postseason average. he also struck out more than he walked in the postseason which is unlike his regular season line.

he had a nutty run in 95, and thats about it.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

What's keeping Piazza out of the HOF again?

same thing [as Ortiz], suspicion.

What is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

he was a DH, didnt hit 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. never won a title.

How would you rank these four issues in terms of importance regarding what is keeping Edgar Martinez out of the HOF?

500 HR's
3,000 hits
no titles
DH

So, PED suspicion, < 500 HRs, < 3,000 hits, no titles, and playing DH are what are keeping two of the greatest hitters of all time at their respective positions out of the HOF.

David Ortiz is suspected of PED usage, has < 500 HRs, has < 3,000 hits, and has played 85% of his career as a DH.

Of the five things you listed that are keeping Martinez and Piazza out, not winning a title -- which is a team accomplishment -- is the only one that Ortiz does not qualify for.

 

[navamind]

holy lol

 

[Rock Strongo]

"Joe Carter had more 100 RBI seasons than Mickey Mantle!!!"

So, PED suspicion, < 500 HRs, < 3,000 hits, no titles, and playing DH are what are keeping two of the greatest hitters of all time at their respective positions out of the HOF.

David Ortiz is suspected of PED usage, has < 500 HRs, has < 3,000 hits, and has played 85% of his career as a DH.

Of the five things you listed that are keeping Martinez and Piazza out, not winning a title -- which is a team accomplishment -- is the only one that Ortiz does not qualify for.

ortiz will hit 500 HR's
he will have at least 3 rings
he will go down as arguably the most feared post season hitter of all time
hes the greatest DH to play since it became a lineup spot in what, 73.
hes the all time leader in HR's for a DH by 3 miles.

edgar was a heck of a hitter, but the resumes dont stack up if you ask me.

ages 27-39 for both:

ortiz: .288/.948 OPS 33 HR 105 RBI 79 walks a year 3 WS titles
martinez: .319/.962 OPS 21 HR 82 RBI 85 walks a year 0 titles

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

500 HR's
3,000 hits
no titles
DH

Those things really kept Jim Rice and Andre Dawson out of the HOF!

(Granted, it's a joke Rice is in.)

There are plenty of players without 500 HRs or 3,000 Hs who are in the hall.

Also, if you were to ask every HOF voter who hasn't voted for Martinez why they haven't, I'd bet all three of my nuts that not one of them would say "he's got no titles." I'd also bet that "he was a DH" would be the response more than once.

The fact that Rock listed DH below "no titles" as reasons why Martinez isn't in the HOF is comical.

 

[Rock Strongo]

theres also a reason why edgar himself said "yeah, ortiz deserves the HOF"

because he knows all of this.

 

[Rock Strongo]

There are plenty of players without 500 HRs or 3,000 Hs who are in the hall.

Also, if you were to ask every HOF voter who hasn't voted for Martinez why they haven't, I'd bet all three of my nuts that not one of them would say "he's got no titles." I'd also bet that "he was a DH" would be the response more than once.

The fact that Rock listed DH below "no titles" as reasons why Martinez isn't in the HOF is comical.

"disagreeing with my take is comical"

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Good Stuff, and like you said, PED's aside

Ortiz' major edge IMO is his postseason resume....Im not sure of many/if any, players in history that are as responsible for 3 titles, as much as Ortiz....

I agree about his postseason resume. It's otherworldly, and in my opinion, would give him an edge over Martinez, but I think that, in the voters' minds, the PED usage might negate that edge.

Id argue the Sox are still in their 100 year drought if not for Papi

There are a few players you could say that about. Without Keith Foulke, for example, 2004 doesn't happen.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I agree about his postseason resume. It's otherworldly, and in my opinion, would give him an edge over Martinez, but I think that, in the voters' minds, the PED usage might negate that edge.



There are a few players you could say that about. Without Keith Foulke, for example, 2004 doesn't happen.

I like talking about 2004, as much as I like talking about Sandy Alomar 1997

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

ortiz will hit 500 HR's
he will have at least 3 rings
he will go down as arguably the most feared post season hitter of all time
hes the greatest DH to play since it became a lineup spot in what, 73.
hes the all time leader in HR's for a DH by 3 miles.

edgar was a heck of a hitter, but the resumes dont stack up if you ask me.

ages 27-39 for both:

ortiz: .288/.948 OPS 33 HR 105 RBI 79 walks a year 3 WS titles
martinez: .319/.962 OPS 21 HR 82 RBI 85 walks a year 0 titles

"if i don't like where the goalposts are, i simply move them"

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

ortiz will hit 500 HR's

Probably. He could also piss hot.

 

[Rock Strongo]

jay buhner had more career HRs than edgar (310 vs 309). 309 is 125th all time.
dale murphy had more RBI (1266 vs 1261) 1266 is 130th all time

a DH's job IS to compile stats. its a position designed solely to drive in runs.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

theres also a reason why edgar himself said "yeah, ortiz deserves the HOF"

because he knows all of this.

Wait.

You mean to tell me that the guy that is generally considered to be the greatest DH in history who is not in the HOF thinks a fellow great DH should be in the hall of fame? I just have a hard time believing that.

Next thing you're going to tell me is that the greatest hitter of a generation who isn't in the HOF because of PED suspicion thinks the greatest pitcher of a generation who is accused of PED usage should be in the HOF.

This is just crazy talk, I tell you.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

"disagreeing with my take is comical"

No, being comical is being comical.

I think that the two best pitching seasons of all time were both pitched by Pedro Martinez. A lot of folks disagree with me on that, and many of them make some damn compelling points. I don't think they're comical.

If you honestly think that the fact that Martinez isn't in the HOF has more to do with him not having any titles than it does him being a DH, I don't know what to tell you that you'd understand.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I like talking about 2004, as much as I like talking about Sandy Alomar 1997

 

[Rock Strongo]

No, being comical is being comical.

I think that the two best pitching seasons of all time were both pitched by Pedro Martinez. A lot of folks disagree with me on that, and many of them make some damn compelling points. I don't think they're comical.

If you honestly think that the fact that Martinez isn't in the HOF has more to do with him not having any titles than it does him being a DH, I don't know what to tell you that you'd understand.

jay buhner had more career HRs than edgar (310 vs 309). 309 is 125th all time.
dale murphy had more RBI (1266 vs 1261) 1266 is 130th all time

a DH's job IS to compile stats. its a position designed solely to drive in runs.

 

[Rock Strongo]

as he stands today, ortiz is 29th in HR's, 2 behind lou gherig and fred mcgriff

he is 34th all time in RBI and should pass chipper jones this year. he will be in the top 30 in HR and RBI by early next year.

edgar isnt in the top 120 for either. again, a DH's job is to drive in runs.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

jay buhner had more career HRs than edgar (310 vs 309). 309 is 125th all time.
dale murphy had more RBI (1266 vs 1261) 1266 is 130th all time

a DH's job IS to compile stats. its a position designed solely to drive in runs.

Jay Buhner's career is not comparable to Edgar Martinez's career. Why is he clouding this conversation?

Dale Murphy had exactly zero point zero ABs as a designated hitter. Why are we talking about him?

I don't disagree that Ortiz's career as a whole is better than Martinez, but Martinez with less than 40% of the vote, is a long way from the HOF.

Ortiz may be the first DH with numbers that enough voters think earn him a spot in the hall, but before he actually gets in, someone's going to have to be the first player that gets in despite suspicion of PEDs, because it's highly unlikely that Ortiz will be the first DH and the first PED user in the HOF.