For those who think Trout over miggy

[MilkSpiller22]

also, by your logic that you will not need to edit your formulas when done, then my formulas are far from finished... The problem i found is that once i add another category i have to edit some previous categories... I see that i did not do that when i added the category of GP...

 

[jalopy]

also, by your logic that you will not need to edit your formulas when done, then my formulas are far from finished... The problem i found is that once i add another category i have to edit some previous categories... I see that i did not do that when i added the category of GP...

I think the Dodgers turnaround is proof that a full season is not needed to have optimal value. He was aided considerably by the promotion and play of Yasiel Puig.

Looking at Hanley's numbers, he topped many sabermetric lists, including wOBA.

 

[element1286]

I'm curious to hear from the other Sabermetric fans on this question. To me, if you put Trout in the NL, he still wouldn't win the MVP -- Andrew McCutchen would.

I just want to see how they feel the voting would go.

He probably wouldn't, but he would be the best 'sabremetric' choice.

 

[element1286]

I think the Dodgers turnaround is proof that a full season is not needed to have optimal value. He was aided considerably by the promotion and play of Yasiel Puig.

Looking at Hanley's numbers, he topped many sabermetric lists, including wOBA.

Eh, optimal over the time he played, not optimal for the season. Can't see placing a guy who played 1/2 a season over very many people for the MVP.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think the Dodgers turnaround is proof that a full season is not needed to have optimal value. He was aided considerably by the promotion and play of Yasiel Puig.

Looking at Hanley's numbers, he topped many sabermetric lists, including wOBA.

Hanley's season seems like the type where the "match the stats" exercise I did before might be pretty useful.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Hanley's season seems like the type where the "match the stats" exercise I did before might be pretty useful.

Here's what we get when looking at the difference between Hanley and McCutchen's seasons

338 PAs, 279 ABs, 80 H, 13 doubles, 3 triples, 1 HR, 17 SB, 8 CS, 51 BB, 6 HBP

BA/OBP/SLG for these "missing" PAs is .287/.405/.366

Does a player with that stat line over 338 PAs provide value to a team? I would say that he absolutely does. So while Hanley had a great season, he still probably needed to play more to exceed McCutchen's overall value.

 

[Darkstone42]

Either u read it wrong or I wrote it wrong singles were worth 1.75.

So starting with walks as 1.00 the patern is .75

Ah, that does at least make some more sense. I think I read the triples weight wrong, too, in that case.

So you picked arbitrary numbers which were generic enough you didn't really have to justify them. It's an occasionally valid method, depending on what information is available.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Ah, that does at least make some more sense. I think I read the triples weight wrong, too, in that case.

So you picked arbitrary numbers which were generic enough you didn't really have to justify them. It's an occasionally valid method, depending on what information is available.

Right, i have no problem with being arbitrary... as long as there is a pattern... I just dont like statistics that are hard to understand the math behind it... I like complication, but there should not be complication inside the complication(if that makes sense)... I will always sacrifice accuracy for clearity, since i understand that there will always be a margin for error(especially for something that is still too hard to quantify)...

 

[Cleaves2000]

We don't see eye to eye. Ask any Tiger pitcher (especially Fister and Porcello) how much defense matters. If Porcello was on a good fielding team his ERA (yes, earned runs) would likely be a full point lower. Yes, he will take the added run support that the offense gives him but come contract time, it matters.

I'm not proposing that defense make up 50% of the metrics because the pitcher factors in a disproportionate amount on that side of the ball but to say that 80-85% of baseball is offense is silly.



I haven't to this point. I rely greatly on my eyeballs and my experience. I lived in SoCal and saw Trout play live about 5-6 times and Miggy for 5 games in the regular season and two games against Oakland in the playoffs. I probably saw the Tigers on TV another 20 games or so. I found myself apologizing for Miggy's play on almost a daily basis. I give him credit for playing out of position for the benefit of the team but he must be analyzed for for the position he attempts to play. He is horrible.

A little defensive with the "sue me" comment. I think I mentioned a few times that your assumptions would be the key. You left that up to the reader to infer.

So you watched miggy play 27 games? Out of 173? No wonder why you think hes the worst 3B......i cant see how anyone can judge someone when they barely seen him play....27 outta 173 isnt good......i think i missed 4-5 games all year.....like i said, i wonder how many miggy haters actually watched him play on a daily basis.

 

[Cleaves2000]

We don't see eye to eye. Ask any Tiger pitcher (especially Fister and Porcello) how much defense matters. If Porcello was on a good fielding team his ERA (yes, earned runs) would likely be a full point lower. Yes, he will take the added run support that the offense gives him but come contract time, it matters.

I'm not proposing that defense make up 50% of the metrics because the pitcher factors in a disproportionate amount on that side of the ball but to say that 80-85% of baseball is offense is silly.



I haven't to this point. I rely greatly on my eyeballs and my experience. I lived in SoCal and saw Trout play live about 5-6 times and Miggy for 5 games in the regular season and two games against Oakland in the playoffs. I probably saw the Tigers on TV another 20 games or so. I found myself apologizing for Miggy's play on almost a daily basis. I give him credit for playing out of position for the benefit of the team but he must be analyzed for for the position he attempts to play. He is horrible.

A little defensive with the "sue me" comment. I think I mentioned a few times that your assumptions would be the key. You left that up to the reader to infer.

Now you "claim" you seen miggy play 7 games live....i know they played only 6 games in oakland all year....so im guessing those were the games unless you traveled to detroit or anaheim or something......in 6 games in oakland detroit gave up a total of 11 runs and 32 hits with ZERO errors......thats less than 2 runs a game and 6 hits a game.....so what did miggy do defensively in your eyes that made you apologize for his play? And did i mention ZERO team errors......so that leaves 20 more games you seen.......just curious how someone with such a small sample can have such a harsh opinion.....like i said before, ill listen to someone whos actually watched a player play more than 100 games.

 

[Ronnie]

Now you "claim" you seen miggy play 7 games live....i know they played only 6 games in oakland all year....so im guessing those were the games unless you traveled to detroit or anaheim or something......in 6 games in oakland detroit gave up a total of 11 runs and 32 hits with ZERO errors......thats less than 2 runs a game and 6 hits a game.....so what did miggy do defensively in your eyes that made you apologize for his play? And did i mention ZERO team errors......so that leaves 20 more games you seen.......just curious how someone with such a small sample can have such a harsh opinion.....like i said before, ill listen to someone whos actually watched a player play more than 100 games.

jalopy does not have to watch all the games....but other people do just that. I have never seen Justin Beiber in concert....but from spot listening, I KNOW he sucks. Stats are formulated by people who do watch the game. What sabermetrics ''tries'' to do is take the opinion and bias out of evaluating a player's performance. How successful have they been...????

 

[element1286]

So you've watched Miggy play all year, and you find his defense acceptable, is that what you are getting at?

 

[Ronnie]

element....Miggy's defense is acceptable, only when you consider his bat into the overall equation. If he hit .250 and 12 homeruns....his defense would earn him a trip to AAA....where he would DH.

 

[element1286]

element....Miggy's defense is acceptable, only when you consider his bat into the overall equation. If he hit .250 and 12 homeruns....his defense would earn him a trip to AAA....where he would DH.

Sure, I'm not denying that, but when you watch him play in the field, and measure him against his peers, his defense is really bad.

Also, should have quoted it, but I was responding to cleaves with that post.

 

[Cleaves2000]

So you've watched Miggy play all year, and you find his defense acceptable, is that what you are getting at?

I dont think hes the worst...hes below avg to avg....his arm helps......putting iggy at SS helped....he didnt struggle til he got hurt.....i seen miggy make alot of nice plays this year....say what you want, but ill take his defense in return for his hitting....hes playing 3B not SS......Like i stated before, teams for some reason didnt try n bunt on him this year, until he got hurt. Now peralta at SS....that was a statue at a position where you need to move.

But to say hes the worst....i live in chicago and i seen the sox 3B this year...now they were the worst.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Sure, I'm not denying that, but when you watch him play in the field, and measure him against his peers, his defense is really bad.

Also, should have quoted it, but I was responding to cleaves with that post.

Im just saying....the only game where i can remember miggy hurting us in the field big time was vs the red sox. I cant recall a game where his defense lost us a game is all im saying.

 

[Ronnie]

I dont think hes the worst...hes below avg to avg....his arm helps......putting iggy at SS helped....he didnt struggle til he got hurt.....i seen miggy make alot of nice plays this year....say what you want, but ill take his defense in return for his hitting....hes playing 3B not SS......Like i stated before, teams for some reason didnt try n bunt on him this year, until he got hurt. Now peralta at SS....that was a statue at a position where you need to move.

But to say hes the worst....i live in chicago and i seen the sox 3B this year...now they were the worst.

Playing devils advocate here....cleaves, you are qualifying Miggy's defense. You'd have to admit that your view is biased, not only because you are a fan, but also because you skew Miggy's offense into his performance....as in...'his defense is K as long as he hits the way he does'. Modern statistics try to take that bias out of the equation. Just differing views,, based on personal choice.

 

[element1286]

I dont think hes the worst...hes below avg to avg....his arm helps......putting iggy at SS helped....he didnt struggle til he got hurt.....i seen miggy make alot of nice plays this year....say what you want, but ill take his defense in return for his hitting....hes playing 3B not SS......Like i stated before, teams for some reason didnt try n bunt on him this year, until he got hurt. Now peralta at SS....that was a statue at a position where you need to move.

But to say hes the worst....i live in chicago and i seen the sox 3B this year...now they were the worst.

That isn't the argument, because everyone would take his hitting.

The CWS were the worst overall, or at defense? Cause I find it hard to believe you could simultaneously think Cabrera is average in the field, while Gillaspie is the worst as far as defense goes.

 

[Cleaves2000]

That isn't the argument, because everyone would take his hitting.

The CWS were the worst overall, or at defense? Cause I find it hard to believe you could simultaneously think Cabrera is average in the field, while Gillaspie is the worst as far as defense goes.

Yup gillaspie is bad.....they tore him up in the tribune all year long. Only guy in his corner was ventura. Like i said...cant remember miggy losing us a game defensively.....but teams didnt try n bunt on him either. Maybe next year.

 

[element1286]

Yup gillaspie is bad.....they tore him up in the tribune all year long. Only guy in his corner was ventura. Like i said...cant remember miggy losing us a game defensively.....but teams didnt try n bunt on him either. Maybe next year.

Well if you honestly think that, I question your knowledge of what you are looking at or your inability to not be a homer.