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For those banging the table for a RB at 13

Discussion in 'Washington Redskins' started by ehb5, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    I didnt seek that out. Happened to listen to the podcast. Found it relevant. Shared it. Pretty simple.

    It also provides data supporting my point - something you havent provided.

    Oh goodness. So its relevant to talk about the age of a take, but not to actually call you out for that rather than responding with a valid counterargument? You realize your original point was completely irrelevant right? And now youre talking about Ad hominem fallacies. Goodness.

    "The data says passing is more valuable. In pretty much every situation", is a factual statement. There is no fallacy there. Factual and relevant statements are not fallacies.

    Also not appeal to the stone fallacy. You have yet to actually provide a counterargument.

    Now youre just being an idiot, frankly. You think that its association fallacy to say, "Sometimes good teams run the ball well, sometimes they dont"...but you DONT think its association fallacy to say "good teams run the ball well"? Holy shit dude. Get some self awareness (and understanding of the terms you use for that matter).

    Good job. Dont explain your naming of RBs. Reality is, you have no argument. Youre blabbering. And when people call you out on this you try to excuse your behavior by saying they are making irrelevant arguments.

    Look Im more than happy to debate the importance of RBs and the running game vs the passing game in today's NFL if you are. But so far youve done nothing to provide an actual argument except be an asshole. Let me know when you want to have a real debate.

    But since Im feeling patient today Ill try and help you out...

    My argument is that...

    RBs are not as valuable as almost every other position in the NFL. Outside of a generational talent like Barkley who is a true 3 down back we shouldnt consider a RB at #13. Additionally, the importance of the running game is often overstated. The passing game is more important and effective.

    Now...would you like to try and refute that like an adult?
     



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  2. gkekoa

    gkekoa Well-Known Member

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    Wrong on both association fallacies. Both are actual facts.
     
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  3. Skins2021

    Skins2021 Active Member

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    I didnt seek that out. Happened to listen to the podcast. Found it relevant. Shared it. Pretty simple. Uhuh whatever you say

    Oh goodness. So its relevant to talk about the age of a take, but not to actually call you out for that rather than responding with a valid counterargument? You realize your original point was completely irrelevant right? And now youre talking about Ad hominem fallacies. Goodness. Well my point was that you are sharing an unoriginal position that was shared by many people a few years ago, however the paradigm has begun to shift again.

    "The data says passing is more valuable. In pretty much every situation", is a factual statement. There is no fallacy there. Factual and relevant statements are not fallacies. Re-read this statement. A) no idea what data you speak of B) Dismissing B and C because A is true IS a fallacy

    Also not appeal to the stone fallacy. You have yet to actually provide a counterargument. Read my words closer

    Now youre just being an idiot, frankly. You think that its association fallacy to say, "Sometimes good teams run the ball well, sometimes they dont"...but you DONT think its association fallacy to say "good teams run the ball well"? Holy shit dude. Get some self awareness (and understanding of the terms you use for that matter). Not every good team passes well. Not every good team runs well. I mean the proof is in the pudding. Trent Dilfer is just as a rare as...... Joseph Addai in terms of SB winning starters

    Good job. Dont explain your naming of RBs. Reality is, you have no argument. Youre blabbering. And when people call you out on this you try to excuse your behavior by saying they are making irrelevant arguments. Off the top of my head the RBs listed all either won in a SB or lost in the SB and the offenses for the most part ran through them. Sorry I didnt spell that out.

    Look Im more than happy to debate the importance of RBs and the running game vs the passing game in today's NFL if you are. But so far youve done nothing to provide an actual argument except be an asshole. Let me know when you want to have a real debate.

    But since Im feeling patient today Ill try and help you out...

    My argument is that...

    RBs are not as valuable as almost every other position in the NFL. Outside of a generational talent like Barkley who is a true 3 down back we shouldnt consider a RB at #13. Additionally, the importance of the running game is often overstated. The passing game is more important and effective.

    Now...would you like to try and refute that like an adult?
    Blahblahblahblahblah nonsense.

    The NFL is cyclical. Guards and RTs use to be unimportant now they are getting paid. Fullbacks use to be very important now they are obsolete. RBs were not held to high value a few years ago and now the value is creeping back.

    Inside linebackers, NT, and Safeties overall value is in the shitter right now but I expect that will change with time.

    NFL is currently a passing league but that may have something to do with the best QBs EVER playing during this generation. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers. They are beginning to get long in the tooth and as I mentioned the league is cyclical I wouldnt be surprised to see teams begin to place more emphasis on the run.... again. It appears its already creeping back as we speak
     
  4. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    Who cares if Im sharing an unoriginal position? I wasnt trying to be original. Do posts on this site have to be all original material now? I mustve missed the memo.

    Just because you dont know what data I was referring to doesnt make it not true. If you had listened to the podcast that wouldve been a good start. But there are plenty of studies on it. 538 had a very interesting post on the topic last year. All I stated in that line were relevant facts. Thats not a fallacy, sorry.

    Of course not every good team does one thing well. Who said they did?

    List of SB champ RBs in the last 10 years
    - Ajayi/Clement/Blount
    - Blount/Lewis/White
    - CJ Anderson
    - Blount/Vereen
    - Lynch
    - Rice/Pierce
    - Bradshaw/Jacobs
    - James Starks
    - Pierre Thomas/Bush
    - Willie Parker

    What an impressive list.

    The QBs meanwhile...
    - Foles (having the game of his life)
    - Brady
    - Peyton (shitty Peyton so doesnt really count as a pro QB argument)
    - Brady
    - Wilson
    - Flacco (having an insane postseason performance)
    - Eli
    - Rodgers
    - Brees
    - Big Ben

    Yea youre right. There are just as many Jay Ajayis as there are Trent Dilfers....

    Thank you for explaining the names. I still dont see the relevance though. Basically none of those players played in the NFL as it is today. Many of them won or made super bowls thanks to their QBs or in rare cases their all time great defenses.

    Mature response lol.

    Sure. And I do think RBs have bounced back a little bit recently but only because there are more good RBs than there were say 3 years ago. The actual value of the position hasnt increased. At best its changed to more of a focus on passing game backs because once again...passing is more effective and important.

    And maybe things will bounce back. But that doesnt change for a second that a decent QB is worth more than a good RB. RBs arent worth much compared to most other positions. QBs especially because...passing is more effective and important.
     
  5. SoCalWizFan

    SoCalWizFan Well-Known Member

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    ehb5,

    To expand on your pt here are the leading rushers on each of the past 10 SB champs with their stats & where they were drafted:

    PHI - Blount - 766 yds - UNDRAFTED
    NE - Blount - 1161 - UNDRAFTED
    DEN - Hilman - 863 - 3rd RD
    NE - Gray - 412 - UNDRAFTED
    SEA - Lynch - 1257 - 1st RD
    BAL - Rice - 1143 - 2nd RD
    NYG - Bradshaw - 659 - 7th RD
    GB - Jackson - 703 - 2nd RD
    NO - Thomas - 793 - UNDRAFTED
    PIT - Parker - 791 - UNDRAFTED

    In the current passer friendly era these are really the only players that matter - the ones prior to this played in a different era with different rules & philosophies. Only 3 of these players rushed for more than 900 yds. More importantly only ONE was drafted in the 1st RD & half of the time the leading rusher was undrafted.

    Again - having a good RB is important & I believe that the Skins need to pursue one in the draft. However - suggesting that it is a prerequisite to winning a SB is just plain incorrect until proven otherwise in this era. Not really sure how you can argue this pt (unless some of the up & comers like the Rams & Jags prove otherwise in the near future).
     
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  6. skinsdad62

    skinsdad62 US ARMY retired /mod.

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    how about we say , uniformed rather then idiot :suds:
     
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  7. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    My b
     
  8. gkekoa

    gkekoa Well-Known Member

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    The paradigm has not shifted. The talent has been better at the RB position over the last couple of years. 25 teams threw 55% or more last season, 9 threw more than 60%, and not a single team rushed more than passed.

    The data he speaks of is situational football and success rates. It is well documented. Just do a google search. The only person dismissing anything is you.

    The proof is in the pusdding. Trent Dilfer has nothing to do with modern football. When is the last time a Super Bowl involved a premier RB?

    The offense did not run through Marshall Faulk and definitely not Xorey Dillon in New England.

    The NFL is not cyclical. The NFL strategies are based on the rules of the game. The value of RBs is not creeping back as evidenced by Leveon Bell being tagged again.

    You keep making the same claim without any evidence. There is no evidence to support the NFL is shifting toward the run. There are a handful of teams that are but not the NFL.
     
  9. kbso83432

    kbso83432 Well-Known Member

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    Gotta feeling they are gonna draft Payne and trade back into the first round, using picks from next year to get Guice. I think Allen is proud of all the comp picks we will have next year and bank on that cushioing the picks from 19 we would use in a trade. Just a guess at this point.
     
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  10. Skins2021

    Skins2021 Active Member

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    I have the same exact mindset. This is what I predict will happen as well.

    The comp picks are a PR tool.
     
  11. Skins2021

    Skins2021 Active Member

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    Its a passing league. Ive acknowledged that multiple times.

    My argument is that the value of the running back is coming back. My argument is also rooted in the fact that I, like many others, think the Skins need an upgrade at the position.

    The NFL is 100% cyclical. You have to look beyond the last 10 years. Jim Kelly, Ken Stabler, Dan Fouts all ran offenses that are similar to todays offenses, then there was a change to a more run-centric approach and now back. Same with defenses 3-4 to 4-3 back to 3-4 and now pretty much split those are just some examples.

    I'd look back a bit on Faulk and Dillon. Faulk was the best player on that offense and Dillon was a revelation for the Pats. Had over 100 yards in the superbowl they won with him.

    Leveon Bell being tagged does not hurt my argument nor does it help yours. Hes getting tagged at a large sum. A lot of cap space is being allocated to a RB which years back would never have happened. In fact Pitt believes hes so valuable that they are willing to use all that cap space on him instead of just letting him walk. Bell is also fighting a similar battles as Kirk did for a more player friendly guaranteed contract trying to set market. Steelers may not see long term value based off the beatings RBs take but they certainly see immediate value.

    Also you dismiss that this is the greatest QB era ever, in terms of stars that is. Rodgers, Manning, Brady, and Brees are top 10 QBs of all time.

    Aside from FB I think all positions are valuable. If you have a shitty ILB or S an offense will kill you with RBs out of backfield or TE.... if you have a shitty C or G defenses will kill you with inside stunts and pressure. If you have a shitty passing game defenses will key on run and vice versa.

    I think thats what makes the game so great is that it truly is a team sport where weak links can get exploited.
     
  12. Skins2021

    Skins2021 Active Member

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    When have I ever said a RB is worth more then a QB?

    QB is the most important position on a football team and its not even close, hence why I was so upset with the Cousins debacle.

    Going into a season and thinking Rob Kelley and a 4th round rookie RB will be fine bc you can just plug anyone in at rb is bad
     
  13. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    You havent. But to be fair, you havent really made a clear statement about what youre actually arguing.

    QBs being worth so much more is a function of the passing game being worth so much more though.

    Well I think we should bring in somebody like CJ Anderson to compete but I think a 4th rounder is fine if thats where the value is. Anderson, Kelley, Perine, Royce Freeman, Thompson is a halfway promising RB room. And if it doesnt work out you can take another shot next year.
     
  14. Skins2021

    Skins2021 Active Member

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    that RBs have value and if you keep neglecting the position and waiting till mid draft you may get lucky, Alfred Morris, or you may get Perine and then average under 4.0 YPC

    Be aggressive trade back into the first or move back from 13 or if you arent crazy about anyone at 13 draft someone you are crazy about, even if its a RB. Create a big board, pick a guy and go after them.

    Last year the Skins wanted Kareem Hunt but they werent as aggressive as the Chiefs so they ended up settling for Samaje Perine....
     
  15. SoCalWizFan

    SoCalWizFan Well-Known Member

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    NFL Draft 2018: Top Running Back Prospects for the Redskins

    Doesn't have to be mid round. They can keep their picks as-is & draft a RB as early as the 2nd RD & there should be plenty of very good ones at that pt. I hope that the argument is not that good RBs need to be taken in the 1st rd or that you are only "lucky" if you find ones after that pt. Arguably the 2 best RBs from last year's draft - Kamara & Hunt - were both taken in the 3rd rd. Also much bigger drop off in talent for D lineman from 1st to later rds then for RBs & make no mistake the Skins need D lineman.
     
  16. Sharkinva

    Sharkinva Well-Known Member

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    I was going to be a smart ass and simply say

    No we dont, we resigned Taylor and brought in whats his name.

    Reality is, this team has needs all over.

    Do we need a RB??? Yep
    Do we need s Safety?? Need is a strong word, but we might could use an extra one
    Do we need a WR?? Probably
    And yes we likely need another O-lineman

    But our biggest need that might actually present the best value at 13, will probably be an interior D-lineman unless both Vea and Payne are off the board.

    I will point out that when the 3rd round comes around, and the Chiefs are on the clock with our pick, I think quit a few people are going to be quietly miffed at the RBs and D-line that are still on the board that we wont have a chance at selecting.
     
  17. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    Of course RBs have value. Theyre on the field after all. Its just less value than most other positions provide, theyre more replaceable, and they dont last as long.

    I like the trade back idea. I want to really like the guy we take and Im not sure anybody at 13 is that exciting. I probably prefer to sit back and wait for value though then to aggressively move up the board. Typically trading back and adding picks seems to be more beneficial.

    If they love a RB and can cheaply move up to target him fine but always important to be careful about throwing multiple assets at one player.
     
  18. ehb5

    ehb5 HTTR

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    Yup. And some people think this RB class is even better. There are a whole handful of promising backs that should be available in the 2nd and later.
     
  19. gkekoa

    gkekoa Well-Known Member

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    Valuing RBs never left. Teams just aren’t willing to pay and force the issue like they used to. They are not and will never be valued like they were. Us needing a RB had no bearing on the NFL valuing the position.

    The NFL is not cyclical. There are fads and there are e run and shoot was a fad. The WCO was an innovation and changed the game. The game has turned into a passing league because the rules have set it up to be one.

    I love Marshall Faulk but the team was centered around passing and Kurt Warner. I also liked Dillon but it was Brady’s offense. Dillon had 75 yards rushing buddy. Brady threw for 240 and two scores.

    There is a difference in not signing KC and not signing Bell. Bell is the best at his position.

    I don’t dismiss it. But guys like Bortles, Tannehill, and Brock Osweiller throw it a ton.
     
  20. coach_spurrier_1

    coach_spurrier_1 Well-Known Member

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    Im all for trading back up for guice .. or drafting guice at 13