Demaryius Thomas gets paid long term

[cdumler7]

Eh I think that's fair. It's a pretty close gap admittedly. You guys still have Harris pretty cheap as well (for what he produces) and I dunno what you guys are doing for QB after this year but safe to assume it's not 20M+ unless Seattle let's Wilson walk and you make a play on that, but that's gotta be an extremely low % chance of happening especially if Elway likes Osweiler.

Yeah honestly this is just the Broncos replacing one big contract with another. DT is signed pretty much for what the Franchise Tag would have been this year. So they are pretty much right where they were before this signing. The Broncos also understand that good chance after this season that Manning retires giving them about $19.5 million in extra cap space and also that Clady will most likely be cut with his injury history compared to his cap cost just not equaling out. So that is another $9 million. So the Broncos essentially will be taking DT and Von for next year compared to Peyton and Clady this year. Honestly it will probably be about equal money between what each of the two groups will cost the team. Now if both of those guys decide to stay and the Broncos decide to keep them they can still sign Von. The issue will be more adding to the team beyond Von. If they leave then the Broncos have some cap room really work with and sign maybe another big FA or sign some of our own guys.

At this point QB obviously is a huge question mark moving forward. Like you said unless some big name FA hits the market good chance the QB position doesn't cost the Broncos a ton of money making it a lot easier to handle signing both DT and Von. I think if this was the beginning of having a QB with a $20-25 million cap hit every year then yes some tougher choices would have to be made but knowing the QB position will be pretty cheap at least the next couple of years as I bet the Broncos sign him to a cheap 2-year deal with lots of incentives. I think the Packers did this with Rodgers.

 

[cdumler7]

Are you kidding me? Bowlen even admitted it. Maybe I shoukd ask for clarification. What year was it that you feel you didn't violate the cap?

The question was didn't the Redskins and Cowboys get penalized for this in the uncapped year...You responded with "yeah so did the Broncos." I said no we did not get penalized in that year. Have we been penalized in the past for some cap issues? Yes we have. Those people that did that were fired very quickly, the Broncos were penalized, and they moved on. The NFL also found unlike that of what the Cowboys and Redskins tried to do that the Broncos received no competitive edge because of what they did with Cap. Essentially what the Broncos did was delay payment to some of the players on the team that had high salaries. The players did not receive extra money it was just done at the wrong time.

 

[GNG]

5 years 70 mil 43.5 guaranteed[/QUOTE

How many passes would he have caught if Manning wasn't the QB?

 

[NWPATSFAN]

The question was didn't the Redskins and Cowboys get penalized for this in the uncapped year...You responded with "yeah so did the Broncos." I said no we did not get penalized in that year. Have we been penalized in the past for some cap issues? Yes we have. Those people that did that were fired very quickly, the Broncos were penalized, and they moved on. The NFL also found unlike that of what the Cowboys and Redskins tried to do that the Broncos received no competitive edge because of what they did with Cap. Essentially what the Broncos did was delay payment to some of the players on the team that had high salaries. The players did not receive extra money it was just done at the wrong time.

I stand corrected. I did not read the uncapped year portion. The rest of your rebuttal is hog wash. It was done at the wrong time to retain players thus circumventing the cap.
You know I have no ill will toward the Broncos nor most of their fans. But you're making it easier.
I do not care for Peyton.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

 

[cdumler7]

How many passes would he have caught if Manning wasn't the QB?

Good question...I guess we will find out soon enough. He showed flashes of brilliance with all the other QB's that he played with. Heck with Tebow he finished the final 6 games of the season in 2011 with the 2nd most yards only behind Calvin Johnson. Not bad considering the Broncos threw under 15 times a game for the most part through that stretch. He also has one of the greatest playoff highlights in NFL history with his 80-yard catch on the first play against Pittsburgh that year.

I would also say his game doesn't really require a top-tier QB to be great. He does a lot of his damage catching the ball within 5-yards of the line of scrimmage and being a big YAC type player. So as long as the QB can throw Screens and 5-yard slant plays he should still be at least an 80-catch thousand yard kind of guy even with an average QB. Throw in just look at the history of Kubiak with average QB's and how much he works to feed the #1 WR. Even with terrible QB's Andre Johnson still averaged close to 1,500 yards most years under Kubiak. That is with the likes of Schaub, Yates, Keenum, and Carr throwing to him.

 

[cdumler7]

I stand corrected. I did not read the uncapped year portion. The rest of your rebuttal is hog wash. It was done at the wrong time to retain players thus circumventing the cap.
You know I have no ill will toward the Broncos nor most of their fans. But you're making it easier.
I do not care for Peyton.

Well if you actually posted things you knew what you were talking about I wouldn't have to keep correcting you. I mean your numbers kept changing about the Broncos and how much Cap Space they had. When I called you on it you just sputtered on about nothing. Then I call you on not reading a post right to which you respond very negatively even though now you realize that you read it wrong. Your Patriots are going through this right now of lots of misinformation being spewed yet when I try to tell you that the Broncos situation with the Cap 20 YEARS AGO did not actually give them a competitive edge and that the NFL even admitted that you still tell me what I am saying is hog wash. Pretty sure you have shown here and in others that you would just rather troll than actually have a real football conversation.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well if you actually posted things you knew what you were talking about I wouldn't have to keep correcting you. I mean your numbers kept changing about the Broncos and how much Cap Space they had. When I called you on it you just sputtered on about nothing. Then I call you on not reading a post right to which you respond very negatively even though now you realize that you read it wrong. Your Patriots are going through this right now of lots of misinformation being spewed yet when I try to tell you that the Broncos situation with the Cap 20 YEARS AGO did not actually give them a competitive edge and that the NFL even admitted that you still tell me what I am saying is hog wash. Pretty sure you have shown here and in others that you would just rather troll than actually have a real football conversation.

It's all perspective. I think we're a lot closer on the cap status then where either of us started now that the deal has been released. You're not on the gravy train as you originally tried to make it sound. Just like your perspective on circumventing the cap didn't give an unfair advantage. I feel being able to keep your Pro Bowl QB and RB by circumventing the system is an unfair advantage, sorry. DT got paid. If Den has 6 million left then they are right on par with teams that manage the cap well. Every site has different $ figures.

Again good luck because I prefer to have my team beat a healthy well stocked team.

 

[cdumler7]

It's all perspective. I think we're a lot closer on the cap status then where either of us started now that the deal has been released. You're not on the gravy train as you originally tried to make it sound. Just like your perspective on circumventing the cap didn't give an unfair advantage. I feel being able to keep your Pro Bowl QB and RB by circumventing the system is an unfair advantage, sorry. DT got paid. If Den has 6 million left then they are right on par with teams that manage the cap well. Every site has different $ figures.

Again good luck because I prefer to have my team beat a healthy well stocked team.

If you actually look at what happened with the Cap the jest of it goes that instead of paying all the money up front like it is supposed to be they delayed payment by a bit. This would be like going to Tom Brady and Gronk and saying hey I know today you are owed $9 million but about we give you $6 million now and you get the other $3 million in a couple of months. They still got paid the same for the season it just was a matter of when the money was paid. With the NFL this is not legal by the rules. Again it added no competitive advantage and the guys were fired because Bowlen couldn't believe these guys were doing this. He had the money as that wasn't the problem. They for some reason had in their heads that because of just paying for the stadium that money was tighter than it was back then. So again both situations the player makes the same amount of money just one got it day 1 and the other had it all by day 90.

As for the Cap situation I have shown why the different pages have different figures. They are closer in numbers than I honestly first thought just a matter of what they include and don't include. Essentially with the signing of DT and the numbers that have come out like you said the Broncos have something like $6 million in cap space right now. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if it did jump back up to about $8-9 million as the Broncos have a couple of veterans with sizable contracts that are on the roster bubble. Can't add that yet as obviously hasn't happened. As for Next season the numbers look pretty close to what I put before and again will depend who the Broncos keep or possibly who retires. The Broncos though if say Manning retires, they cut Clady, and then Ware decides to retire (say the Broncos win the Super Bowl and some of the old guys decide to go out on top) and the Broncos all of a sudden have close to $50-60 million in Cap Space making it very easy to sign Von and all of our FA's plus a couple of others if we wanted. Obviously have no clue how next season will play out so just have to wait till then.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

If you actually look at what happened with the Cap the jest of it goes that instead of paying all the money up front like it is supposed to be they delayed payment by a bit. This would be like going to Tom Brady and Gronk and saying hey I know today you are owed $9 million but about we give you $6 million now and you get the other $3 million in a couple of months. They still got paid the same for the season it just was a matter of when the money was paid. With the NFL this is not legal by the rules. Again it added no competitive advantage and the guys were fired because Bowlen couldn't believe these guys were doing this. He had the money as that wasn't the problem. They for some reason had in their heads that because of just paying for the stadium that money was tighter than it was back then. So again both situations the player makes the same amount of money just one got it day 1 and the other had it all by day 90.

As for the Cap situation I have shown why the different pages have different figures. They are closer in numbers than I honestly first thought just a matter of what they include and don't include. Essentially with the signing of DT and the numbers that have come out like you said the Broncos have something like $6 million in cap space right now. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if it did jump back up to about $8-9 million as the Broncos have a couple of veterans with sizable contracts that are on the roster bubble. Can't add that yet as obviously hasn't happened. As for Next season the numbers look pretty close to what I put before and again will depend who the Broncos keep or possibly who retires. The Broncos though if say Manning retires, they cut Clady, and then Ware decides to retire (say the Broncos win the Super Bowl and some of the old guys decide to go out on top) and the Broncos all of a sudden have close to $50-60 million in Cap Space making it very easy to sign Von and all of our FA's plus a couple of others if we wanted. Obviously have no clue how next season will play out so just have to wait till then.

Ok something we can agree on rules were broken and Denver paid the price. We're now singing from the same sheet WRT to the Dencer cap

 

[Broncosr0k]

Again good luck because I prefer to have my team beat a healthy well stocked team, by cheating.

Fixed it for you.

Poor pats fan. Just can't handle that his shiny team is a little dirty.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Fixed it for you.

Poor pats fan. Just can't handle that his shiny team is a little dirty.

I guess it takes one to know one there shinny?

 

[jarntt]

See no collusion here. Those two contracts are dramatically different!

LOL I heard when they handed the contract to Thomas he asked why the contract said "Dez Thomas" on it...

 

[jarntt]

Do teams really care about a "cap hit?" If they want a player or players badly enough they will take the penalty, no?

You can't field a team over the cap. The league has to approve all of these contracts and won't approve one that puts a team over the cap. I guess if a team goes over through some weird way likes player hitting some unexpected bonuses or maybe retiring and leaving a huge cap hit behind, the team could go over, but the penalties could be draft picks lost and the league wouldn't approve any transactions until you got under. Basically it's not going to happen. Heck, if the owners want to pay out more money, I'm sure the players will let them increase the cap...

 

[TDs3nOut]

Some discussion here yesterday about how DT's new contract affects Denver's cap going forward. Here is an article in which Elway addresses that:

Excerpt:

"Thomas wasn't the first of this wave of homegrown Broncos to receive a new contract, following in the footsteps of cornerback Chris Harris Jr. last December. He also won't be the last, with a slew of expiring contracts lurking over the horizon for next winter, a group led by pending unrestricted free agents Von Miller, Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan and projected restricted free agent C.J. Anderson.

"We're prepared for all those," Elway said. "I think that's what it comes down to, when we look at what the value is for the Broncos, what we can afford and how we can fit it in the structure and how that fits into our football team. All of those things will go into consideration when we determine what we're going to pay somebody."

Elway said the team has plans for three and four years down the line to fit the players they want to retain within their salary-cap budget.

"We're well aware of what we have coming up. We have a lot of good football players coming up. Demaryius is a big part of that, and that's why he's the first part of trying to keep this football team together."

Added Elway later: "DT was the first step, and we'll have a plan for Von next year as well as other players. We've got a couple of other really good football players that are also coming into their last year, and we'll try to hold onto as many as we can. Obviously it's impossible to hold on to everyone in the salary-cap era, but we're going to do our best to keep them all.""

 

[handicappers]

Brock Osweiler will have DT in his prime. Good for him getting his money.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Man I dunno about these mega contracts for these star WRs. I guess I'd rather pay money to other positions that are factors on every play.

Let's face it, few wide receivers impact the run game that much (Hines Ward was one of the last ones I can remember that was a ridiculous blocker in the run) so having them impact about 60% of the plays only (Indy was like 65% in prob. the most pass happy offense considering their ground game sucks) just doesn't do as much for me.

To me around $10M or so would be my cap for a wide receiver. Kind of like Cobb/Nelson. $14M isn't too bad with an ever rising cap but do I take a star corner over a star wide receiver? I think so.... A good QB can elevate receivers and that's the goal of every team (to obtain a good QB). Meanwhile the corner can still make impact plays on runs and when other wide receivers have the ball. Sure a good WR will keep the defense honest but a good CB will keep the offense honest.

A good corner impacts two positions (the QB and WR). A good WR relies on a good QB throwing the ball and to still out-skill the corner.


I know everyone will think I'm a homer because Seattle has crap wide receivers (unless counting Graham who again is $10M at most) and one of the best corners in the league, but I dunno. Even when we signed Harvin and gave him that ridiculous $11M per year contract I was HIGHLY annoyed due to that contract. Just feel money is better spent elsewhere.

When was the last team that won a SBOWL have a knockout WR? Maybe Colts Harrison/Wayne or Packers with Jennings but I don't believe any of those guys were getting paid these blockbuster contracts? There's been some decent wide receivers to make the Super Bowl if not future HOFers but they were under cheap contracts and the team was spending money at other what I consider more important positions. Even Randy Moss, he was playing super cheap that season if I recall (even though Pats lost).

You make good points.

Here is why I think you have to pay the top WRs.

It's still a passing league today. The game is still played mostly between the 20s. The rules favor the passing game more than ever now.

If you don't have a legit shut down CB (most teams don't have one) you probably need to double the star WR which forces one on one matchups elsewhere on the field...and if your #1 WR is a burner...he typically occupies the FS as well.

Yeah...the SEA MO proves that you don't need a star at the position to have success...but what might be missing is it the difficulty in drafting CBs...the last high draft pick @ CB that was truly a difference maker was Patrick Peterson...most of the other recent high picks are still just trying to be effective starters.

 

[cdumler7]

Congrats CD! Not that Bebe was really going anywhere this yr, but now you guys know he's locked up for several years...being an ATL guy, I'm happy to see DT get paid and hopefully he can do some good things with his family.

I'm happy with the deal. DT has been everything we had hoped for when he was drafted and probably more. I didn't expect him to become a top-5 WR in this league but that is what he has been. Throw in by next year with Julio and Green coming up for contracts good chance DT is not even being paid top-5 for his position. My guess is by year 3 of this deal it looks like a huge bargain compared to the stats he is putting up. Some of that depends on who the Broncos get at QB following Manning but Kubiak has shown that his style of offense features the #1 WR quite a bit and even with mediocre to bad QB's the #1 still has a chance of putting up 1,500 yards a season. Now just time to go lock up Von Miller.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I'm happy with the deal. DT has been everything we had hoped for when he was drafted and probably more. I didn't expect him to become a top-5 WR in this league but that is what he has been. Throw in by next year with Julio and Green coming up for contracts good chance DT is not even being paid top-5 for his position. My guess is by year 3 of this deal it looks like a huge bargain compared to the stats he is putting up. Some of that depends on who the Broncos get at QB following Manning but Kubiak has shown that his style of offense features the #1 WR quite a bit and even with mediocre to bad QB's the #1 still has a chance of putting up 1,500 yards a season. Now just time to go lock up Von Miller.

DT, Top 5...coming out of Tech I didn't see that either, but I think we both know Manning was a big part of his development. Now...it just depends on how hard he wants to work to stay there.

Julio...I expect ATL to hash out a similar contract for him before the season starts...they have the cap space...I think the only pause they are having is #1...what's the market? They know that now...#2..injury concern...idk how big that concern is...maybe they want to see him complete this season, but either way...the Falcons gave up way too much for JJ to be a one contract player here.

 

[jarntt]

DT is good and explosive. I just wonder if once Peyton leaves, Denver looks back on this and realizes he wasn't quite as good as they thought he was...