Danny Hurley welcome to the Lakers !

[tlance]

Krause was definitely an easy guy to hate.

Even though he was truly great at putting together staffs and rosters.

If I remember correctly, not much changed for the Bulls from being lead by Doug Collins to being lead by Phil. Phil and Tex were there under DC. The Pistons and Celtics just got old eventually.

And MJ had reshaped his body by the time it happened.

Pippen lost in the playoffs three times to the Pistons before he won a title. It’s not as if the duo had been together that long before they broke through.

Hey, I was there. I remember what people were saying about MJ back then.

Not much different to how we talk about Russ today. Or at least how we talked about him a few years ago.

 

[tlance]

They are totally different animals. (Which is why Larry gets my vote as best coach). And Dean was a master of teamwork.

Helped hone MJs greatness.

MJ never had issues with coaches, that I’m aware of.

Hell, he played for Collins again with the Wizards.

See though…

I think it is way easier for a great coach to have a contending team every year in college.

And way flukier to win a championship. And that works both ways. It is almost a different sport entirely.

I just don’t get the logic behind the argument. So many truly epic coaches who never coached in college.

Do we really think if Phil Jackson or Pat Riley coached at the college level for a decade that they weren’t going to be highly successful?

 

[broncosmitty]

Hey, I was there. I remember what people were saying about MJ back then.

Not much different to how we talk about Russ today. Or at least how we talked about him a few years ago.

As guy who was rooting for the team that kept beating him..

I don’t remember people wondering if he’d ever win.

He was losing to the best team in the NBA. The team who had been the team that kept losing to the best team in the NBA before that.

The Russ comparisons are not something I’m very comfortable with. In fact, I dislike seeing it.

 

[tlance]

As guy who was rooting for the team that kept beating him..

I don’t remember people wondering if he’d ever win.

He was losing to the best team in the NBA. The team who had been the team that kept losing to the best team in the NBA before that.

The Russ comparisons are not something I’m very comfortable with. In fact, I dislike seeing it.

Only taking about ego and personality.

Not ability.

 

[broncosmitty]

See though…

I think it is way easier for a great coach to have a contending team every year in college.

And way flukier to win a championship. And that works both ways. It is almost a different sport entirely.

I just don’t get the logic behind the argument. So many truly epic coaches who never coached in college.

Do we really think if Phil Jackson or Pat Riley coached at the college level for a decade that they weren’t going to be highly successful?

If Phil gets the best player every year, sure. And Tex wants to go back to the college game.

Pat Riley could’ve been the head of a program like Coach K and Dean were.

 

[tlance]

If Phil gets the best player every year, sure. And Tex wants to go back to the college game.

Pat Riley could’ve been the head of a program like Coach K and Dean were.

I don’t think Phil needed Tex.

Any good X and O guy could have filled that role.

And I don’t see why he wouldn’t get the best players. Especially if he went to college after his stint with the Bulls.

Really though?

If we going to combine college and pro, then Dean Smith, K, Wooden etc all need to be in the conversation too.

And Brown doesn’t compare IMO.

 

[trojanfan12]

They are totally different animals. (Which is why Larry gets my vote as best coach). And Dean was a master of teamwork.

Helped hone MJs greatness.

MJ never had issues with coaches, that I’m aware of.

Hell, he played for Collins again with the Wizards.

When talking about "impossibly hard to coach" it's not necessarily about there being open defiance, shouting matches or calling for a coach to be fired.

Part of what makes great players great is their delusional level belief in their own abilities. Much more often than not, it comes with the belief that they don't need anyone else to win. It can be very difficult to get those players to play and stick with a team concept because for most of their lives, they kinda haven't needed anyone else to win.

Imo, without Phil getting stars to buy into a team concept, you don't see MJ giving up the ball to Paxson and Kerr or Kobe give up the ball to Metta World Peace for dagger 3's late in finals games.

 

[broncosmitty]

I don’t think Phil needed Tex.

Any good X and O guy could have filled that role.

And I don’t see why he wouldn’t get the best players. Especially if he went to college after his stint with the Bulls.

Really though?

If we going to combine college and pro, then Dean Smith, K, Wooden etc all need to be in the conversation too.

And Brown doesn’t compare IMO.

Whefff… idk there.

What were they together for, 9/11 titles?

I hesitate with Wooden in these on account of the pool of talent he had to pick from to divide his 200 minutes a night.

Don’t mean to diminish him or anything. Just has always felt foreign in a way to me.

Everything CBB that’s before Magic/Bird just feels completely different.

 

[broncosmitty]

When talking about "impossibly hard to coach" it's not necessarily about there being open defiance, shouting matches or calling for a coach to be fired.

Part of what makes great players great is their delusional level belief in their own abilities. Much more often than not, it comes with the belief that they don't need anyone else to win. It can be very difficult to get those players to play and stick with a team concept because for most of their lives, they kinda haven't needed anyone else to win.

Imo, without Phil getting stars to buy into a team concept, you don't see MJ giving up the ball to Paxson and Kerr or Kobe give up the ball to Metta World Peace for dagger 3's late in finals games.

MJs assists went down when Phil took over.

 

[tlance]

Whefff… idk there.

What were they together for, 9/11 titles?

I hesitate with Wooden in these on account of the pool of talent he had to pick from to divide his 200 minutes a night.

Don’t mean to diminish him or anything. Just has always felt foreign in a way to me.

Everything CBB that’s before Magic/Bird just feels completely different.

They were together for a lot of winning.

But the Triangle offense was nothing special. Innovative at the time, sure.

But it was Phil’s ability to get superstars to buy in to the team concept is what made it work.

and there are reasons why nobody uses it anymore.

Phil was a master at putting talented people around him and letting them do their thing. If not Tex, he would have found someone else to fill the same role.

 

[tlance]

MJs assists went down when Phil took over.

Because he allowed the ball to move and for his teammates to do more.

Imagine if someone had gotten Russ to do that when he still had KD

 

[fightinfunbags]

I don’t think Phil needed Tex.

So the plan for the head coach was to let any competent assistant pick the scheme for the team to run?

I can see why you think this guy is the GOAT.

 

[broncosmitty]

Because he allowed the ball to move and for his teammates to do more.

Imagine if someone had gotten Russ to do that when he still had KD

He also started taking 3’s.

 

[tlance]

So the plan for the head coach was to let any competent assistant pick the scheme for the team to run?

I can see why you think this guy is the GOAT.

Did I say that?

Phil knew what his strengths were. He wasn’t the X and O guy.

You guys are giving way to much credit to an assistant who ran a now outdated scheme.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Did I say that?

Pretty much you did. You said Phil didn’t need Tex. He didn’t need his innovative scheme. He could have just let another competent assistant make the big basketball choices and Phil could concentrate on vibes and shakras.

Phil knew what his strengths were. He wasn’t the X and O guy.

And that’s why he’s the GOAT. He’s the whole package.

You guys are giving way to much credit to an assistant who ran a now outdated scheme.

The wishbone is now outdated. At one time it changed the game. Michael Jordan was drafted 40 years ago. The sport evolves. Your “now outdated scheme” comment holds no bearing on anything.




Do you want to sell me on the GOAT head coach in other major sport who was the greatest of all time but who leaned on his top assistant to make all the scheme choices for the team and to do all the teaching of the scheme? That would actually be a compelling argument.

You saying “I don’t give Tex much credit” isn’t very compelling. Jackson got superstars to buy in. Awesome. That’s the coach’s job. We see that happen with dozens of teams every year.

 

[tlance]

Pretty much you did. You said Phil didn’t need Tex. He didn’t need his innovative scheme. He could have just let another competent assistant make the big basketball choices and Phil could concentrate on vibes and shakras.

And that’s why he’s the GOAT. He’s the whole package.

The wishbone is now outdated. At one time it changed the game. Michael Jordan was drafted 40 years ago. The sport evolves. Your “now outdated scheme” comment holds no bearing on anything.




Do you want to sell me on the GOAT head coach in other major sport who was the greatest of all time but who leaned on his top assistant to make all the scheme choices for the team and to do all the teaching of the scheme? That would actually be a compelling argument.

You saying “I don’t give Tex much credit” isn’t very compelling. Jackson got superstars to buy in. Awesome. That’s the coach’s job. We see that happen with dozens of teams every year.

LOL.

That is the hard part.

Xs and Os are easy. There are literally hundreds of coaches who can do that.

Overseeing it all and getting the pieces to work together is where the art is.

 

[fightinfunbags]

LOL.

That is the hard part.

Xs and Os are easy. There are literally hundreds of coaches who can do that.

Overseeing it all and getting the pieces to work together is where the art is.

Yeah I know you’ve said it like 45 times in here and you still have an answer for why guys like Thibs can do that and he’s just a guy. Phil is Phil because he had Jordan and Pippen and he had Shaq and Kobe. Period. The End.

Your argument essentially comes down to he had the greatest vibes of all time. It’s pretty fucking weird.

 

[trojanfan12]

MJs assists went down when Phil took over.

As @tlance pointed out, not dominating the ball and allowing it to move amongst your teammates will do that.

Also, not all assists are created equal. Russell Westbrook won himself an MVP because he averaged a triple double.

But how much did the assists part of that really contribute to winning?

Many of those assists came from him dominating the ball for 20 out of 24 seconds before finally passing the ball.

His teams may have won more if he averaged 6 or 7 assists and allowed the ball to move more among his teammates.

 

[tlance]

Yeah I know you’ve said it like 45 times in here and you still have an answer for why guys like Thibs can do that and he’s just a guy. Phil is Phil because he had Jordan and Pippen and he had Shaq and Kobe. Period. The End.

Your argument essentially comes down to he had the greatest vibes of all time. It’s pretty fucking weird.

Phil is Phil because he got those guys to put egos aside and play together.

Better than anyone ever.

How many times did he coach a championship caliber team? Maybe 13 seasons?

And he won 11?

That is crazy.

 

[dtgold88]

Oh, don’t get it twisted.

I do not believe my opinion is the only one.

Make a case for Pop, Riley, Auerbach, go for it.

I do believe that some opinions are not very intelligent. And I push back on those.

Just like when someone tries to say Kobe, Or Jayson Tatum is the GOAT.

Same thing.

That's cool, but you kind of do believe your opinion is the only one as usual......but I gave you legitimate reasons for my opinion (as has the other who shares it). I would even push back on someone who said Phillip is not a good coach since all he did was coach the best players in the game at time or even all time. Even though that happens to be true.

I just happen to believe basketball is nearly all about the players. I mean, do you think Pop just got stupid the last half decade or so? I don't....and I can appreciate he didn't quit when things got tough.

I have to say I think it's pure comedy you say these things about others opinions then say many saw early MJ like they see Russ now?

Ya gotta love this forum.