Danny Hurley welcome to the Lakers !

[dtgold88]

Yep.

Russ/KD OKC is the gold standard for examples in why it isn’t easy coaching talent.

Those teams were loaded. Good support players behind them too.

Biggest reason they didn’t win?

IMO was coaching.

Donovan only had 1 year (maybe 2) so not blaming him.

But put a younger PJ at the helm of that team starting in about 2012?

How many titles they getting?

Not sure exactly, but I would bet on more than 2.

MJ was impossibly hard to coach. A lot like Russ (obviously a better player) And the biggest reason OKC couldn’t win was that no coach was able to reign Russ in the way PJ did with MJ.

Then there's the whole MJ being a lot better than Russ, as well. Team that beat OKC was kind of good, too.

Might Phillip have won with them? sure.....but BD (or Brown) also might have won a lot with MJ, shaq, Kobe, Pippen, etc. Want to tell me Brown would not have won 11? I can definitely buy that as he might have been bored after a couple.

 

[dtgold88]

If he commits, he loses all of his leverage. To commit before the Cavs did anything to improve the roster would have been dumb on his part.

He was in a position where he had an "out" set up if the Cavs couldn't get anything done and didn't want to give that up before they showed they could make the necessary roster moves.

Maybe he should have quietly told them that he was leaving if they didn't improve the roster. But why should he have to? If the organization was serious about winning a title they'd see what was necessary and already be doing it.

To be fair to the Cavs, Cleveland isn't exactly a "destination city" for FA's so we have no idea how many high quality FA's they may have spoken to and gotten turned down by even with Lebron there.

It may be that for Lebron and the Cavs to win a title together, things had to happen exactly as they did.

OK, but commit and maybe the Cavs can make the rumored deals that said Bosh could come here? Even when the guy was going to be here a while he could not be bothered to help recruit when they went after Redd or Allen (settled on Hughes).

When things "happened as they did" there was a commitment from Lebron which likely influenced Love to want to come.

None of this is to say he owed them a commitment....or anything, really. Not like he broke any rules. But my opinion is he knew he wanted to go to Miami and then LA well before he went there. Which is fine.

 

[tlance]

Then there's the whole MJ being a lot better than Russ, as well. Team that beat OKC was kind of good, too.

Might Phillip have won with them? sure.....but BD (or Brown) also might have won a lot with MJ, shaq, Kobe, Pippen, etc. Want to tell me Brown would not have won 11? I can definitely buy that as he might have been bored after a couple.

I would bet anything Brown would not have won 11.

He was a teacher. But he butted heads with stars in multiple stops. He had a completely different skill set.

Want to say Phil couldn’t have done what Brown did?

Maybe not.

But no chance in hell Brown could have done what Phil did.

He won almost every single time he had a team good enough to win.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yep.

Russ/KD OKC is the gold standard for examples in why it isn’t easy coaching talent.

Those teams were loaded. Good support players behind them too.

Biggest reason they didn’t win?

IMO was coaching.

Donovan only had 1 year (maybe 2) so not blaming him.

But put a younger PJ at the helm of that team starting in about 2012?

How many titles they getting?

Not sure exactly, but I would bet on more than 2.

MJ was impossibly hard to coach. A lot like Russ (obviously a better player) And the biggest reason OKC couldn’t win was that no coach was able to reign Russ in the way PJ did with MJ.

Zero titles.

That team was stacked with guys capable of being MVPs.

Was not stacked with guys capable of being champions.

Don’t really know where “MJ was impossibly hard to coach” is coming from. He described Dean Smith as a second father and his mentor. Dude was as self motivated as any athlete has ever been.

 

[tlance]

Zero titles.

That team was stacked with guys capable of being MVPs.

Was not stacked with guys capable of being champions.

Don’t really know where “MJ was impossibly hard to coach” is coming from. He described Dean Smith as a second father and his mentor. Dude was as self motivated as any athlete has ever been.

MJ was the biggest ego in the league and he had to be in control.

It is not easy to coach a player like that. No matter how good they are.

 

[trojanfan12]

Then there's the whole MJ being a lot better than Russ, as well. Team that beat OKC was kind of good, too.

Might Phillip have won with them? sure.....but BD (or Brown) also might have won a lot with MJ, shaq, Kobe, Pippen, etc. Want to tell me Brown would not have won 11? I can definitely buy that as he might have been bored after a couple.

I'm not sure he could. Not because he didn't know the X's and O's or wasn't better at teaching the game than Phil, but because I'm not sure he could have handled the egos of his stars as well as Phil.

With players like MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe it's not about X's and O's or teaching them the game near as much as it is about getting them to suppress their egos and buy into a team concept.

Browns claim as GOAT comes down to being able to get his teams to be more than the sum of their parts. Part of what allows that is his players lack of ego and willingness to be coached. Superstars in the NBA don't really need to be coached in the traditional sense.

Coaches have success with certain types of players for a reason...

I think Brown had success with younger/"lesser players" because he had the patience to teach them. Phil would bury young players on the bench because he didn't have the patience to teach them.

Phil was successful dealing with star players because he had the patience to "break down their egos" enough to convince them to buy into a team concept. I don't think Brown would have had the patience for that.

 

[broncosmitty]

MJ was the biggest ego in the league and he had to be in control.

It is not easy to coach a player like that. No matter how good they are.

Was also by far the best player and a disgusting competitor.

That’s the best combo anyone has ever got in a player.

 

[tlance]

Was also by far the best player and a disgusting competitor.

That’s the best combo anyone has ever got in a player.

I agree.

But literally people were saying that he would never win a title before Phil came in because he tried to do everything by himself and it didn’t work.

Russ’ personality is actually pretty similar to MJ in a lot of ways.

Not a given that he and Pippen ever win a ring without Phil. They both hated Krause. How many times coming up short does it take before 1 leaves?

 

[dtgold88]

I would bet anything Brown would not have won 11.

He was a teacher. But he butted heads with stars in multiple stops. He had a completely different skill set.

Want to say Phil couldn’t have done what Brown did?

Maybe not.

But no chance in hell Brown could have done what Phil did.

He won almost every single time he had a team good enough to win.

sure thing

 

[dtgold88]

MJ was the biggest ego in the league and he had to be in control.

It is not easy to coach a player like that. No matter how good they are.

I can agree it might not be easy to coach a guy like that...or Kobe/Shaq, as well.

But it's also not easy to win a title when your best player is not close to MVP level.

 

[The Q]

I can agree it might not be easy to coach a guy like that...or Kobe/Shaq, as well.

But it's also not easy to win a title when your best player is not close to MVP level.

Celtics 2 wins away from it with a mediocre hc

 

[tlance]

I can agree it might not be easy to coach a guy like that...or Kobe/Shaq, as well.

But it's also not easy to win a title when your best player is not close to MVP level.

I agree with that.

And those Pistons were very good.

But I have heard a few on here say they only won because Malone got hurt.

Not sure I buy that, but it is what it is.

 

[dtgold88]

I'm not sure he could. Not because he didn't know the X's and O's or wasn't better at teaching the game than Phil, but because I'm not sure he could have handled the egos of his stars as well as Phil.

With players like MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe it's not about X's and O's or teaching them the game near as much as it is about getting them to suppress their egos and buy into a team concept.

Browns claim as GOAT comes down to being able to get his teams to be more than the sum of their parts. Part of what allows that is his players lack of ego and willingness to be coached. Superstars in the NBA don't really need to be coached in the traditional sense.

Coaches have success with certain types of players for a reason...

I think Brown had success with younger/"lesser players" because he had the patience to teach them. Phil would bury young players on the bench because he didn't have the patience to teach them.

Phil was successful dealing with star players because he had the patience to "break down their egos" enough to convince them to buy into a team concept. I don't think Brown would have had the patience for that.

all good points.....but like some think "doing more with less" for Brown is overblown I think the getting all time greats to play well together is also a bit overblown.

But unlike one person in this thread I am certainly not claiming my opinion is the only one and if someone thinks Phil, Pop, etc is the best I know a really strong case can be made for that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Don’t really know where “MJ was impossibly hard to coach” is coming from. He described Dean Smith as a second father and his mentor. Dude was as self motivated as any athlete has ever been.

College and Pros are completely different animals. College coaches, at that time at least, had far more "power" than the players. Once they get to the NBA, at least for stars, that dynamic changes.

Also, Dean Smith was already established as a coaching legend when MJ played for him and the rosters he was on had several NBA caliber players as well.

 

[dtgold88]

I agree.

But literally people were saying that he would never win a title before Phil came in because he tried to do everything by himself and it didn’t work.

Russ’ personality is actually pretty similar to MJ in a lot of ways.

Not a given that he and Pippen ever win a ring without Phil. They both hated Krause. How many times coming up short does it take before 1 leaves?

Knowing he never left despite hating Krause something tells me unless they had max deals like they do now and someone could have come close to what the Bulls offered MJ was not going anywhere.

also not a given Phillip wins a ring without MJ or Pippen....the couple shots he did without MJ for the full season or most of it he did fail to win a ring. I'm not ripping him for it, though, since I have said IMO that 55 win season was his most impressive to me as a coach.

 

[dtgold88]

I agree with that.

And those Pistons were very good.

But I have heard a few on here say they only won because Malone got hurt.

Not sure I buy that, but it is what it is.

Is that right about Malone? I recall a Finals where Magic (and I believe Scott) missed games but didn't recall Malone being hurt when they had him...admittedly don't even recall which year that was other than late in his career.

 

[The Q]

I agree with that.

And those Pistons were very good.

But I have heard a few on here say they only won because Malone got hurt.

Not sure I buy that, but it is what it is.

It’s the reality

 

[broncosmitty]

I agree.

But literally people were saying that he would never win a title before Phil came in because he tried to do everything by himself and it didn’t work.

Russ’ personality is actually pretty similar to MJ in a lot of ways.

Not a given that he and Pippen ever win a ring without Phil. They both hated Krause. How many times coming up short does it take before 1 leaves?

Krause was definitely an easy guy to hate.

Even though he was truly great at putting together staffs and rosters.

If I remember correctly, not much changed for the Bulls from being lead by Doug Collins to being lead by Phil. Phil and Tex were there under DC. The Pistons and Celtics just got old eventually.

And MJ had reshaped his body by the time it happened.

Pippen lost in the playoffs three times to the Pistons before he won a title. It’s not as if the duo had been together that long before they broke through.

 

[tlance]

all good points.....but like some think "doing more with less" for Brown is overblown I think the getting all time greats to play well together is also a bit overblown.

But unlike one person in this thread I am certainly not claiming my opinion is the only one and if someone thinks Phil, Pop, etc is the best I know a really strong case can be made for that.

Oh, don’t get it twisted.

I do not believe my opinion is the only one.

Make a case for Pop, Riley, Auerbach, go for it.

I do believe that some opinions are not very intelligent. And I push back on those.

Just like when someone tries to say Kobe, Or Jayson Tatum is the GOAT.

Same thing.

 

[broncosmitty]

College and Pros are completely different animals. College coaches, at that time at least, had far more "power" than the players. Once they get to the NBA, at least for stars, that dynamic changes.

Also, Dean Smith was already established as a coaching legend when MJ played for him and the rosters he was on had several NBA caliber players as well.

They are totally different animals. (Which is why Larry gets my vote as best coach). And Dean was a master of teamwork.

Helped hone MJs greatness.

MJ never had issues with coaches, that I’m aware of.

Hell, he played for Collins again with the Wizards.