Danny Hurley welcome to the Lakers !

[DJ]

 

[trojanfan12]

as to the last comment? I do.Just not buying there are not other coaches who could have convinced MJ to pass late in games.

There may well have been other coaches who could have done the same with Kobe, but it was Phil who got through to both.

But we're not discussing other coaches, we're discussing Phil and Larry Brown.

I just don't think Brown could/would have.

 

[trojanfan12]

I can agree the assists coming down does not mean a whole lot when it comes to MJs when Phil joined.

But these comparisons to Westbrook are kind of out there IMO (and, yes, I get it's not solely about their overall talent)

They actually work very well because it's the same issue.

MJ, Kobe and Westbrook are 3 great players who all had trouble with the idea of sharing the ball.

Phil got through to MJ and Kobe resulting in 11 rings between the 2 of them.

No one got through to Westbrook and he's ringless.

I don't think it's "out there" to wonder if Westbrook could have at least gotten a ring or 2 if he'd had a coach that could convince him to trust his teammates more.

Or for that matter, how many fewer rings might MJ or Kobe have if no one convinced them to trust their teammates.

 

[tlance]

They actually work very well because it's the same issue.

MJ, Kobe and Westbrook are 3 great players who all had trouble with the idea of sharing the ball.

Phil got through to MJ and Kobe resulting in 11 rings between the 2 of them.

No one got through to Westbrook and he's ringless.

I don't think it's "out there" to wonder if Westbrook could have at least gotten a ring or 2 if he'd had a coach that could convince him to trust his teammates more.

Or for that matter, how many fewer rings might MJ or Kobe have if no one convinced them to trust their teammates.

Too hard for people to see it with the value of hindsight and what these guys actually accomplished.

Scott Brooks was a horrible coach. Let Russ do whatever he wanted it seemed.

But give MJ and Pip a Scott Brooks?

And give Russ and KD a Phil?

History would remember those players differently.

 

[DJ]

Too hard for people to see it with the value of hindsight and what these guys actually accomplished.

Scott Brooks was a horrible coach. Let Russ do whatever he wanted it seemed.

But give MJ and Pip a Scott Brooks?

And give Russ and KD a Phil?

History would remember those players differently.

Yep.

 

[DJ]

We saw what happened with MJ and Pip with Collins....and he was a solid coach.

Gave them Jackson and the rest was history.

 

[DJ]

Kind of like Shaq and Kobe with Dull Harris.

Jackson came along and put them over the hump.

 

[broncosmitty]

We saw what happened with MJ and Pip with Collins....and he was a solid coach.

Gave them Jackson and the rest was history.

Pippen was only a full time starter for one season under Collins.

Let’s not pretend like he’s was anywhere near his prime pre Phil.

 

[tlance]

Pippen was only a full time starter for one season under Collins.

Let’s not pretend like he’s was anywhere near his prime pre Phil.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Horace Grant also.

 

[trojanfan12]

Kind of like Shaq and Kobe with Dull Harris.

Jackson came along and put them over the hump.

Del Harris is a good example of a guy who was a good "teacher of the game", but not great at relating to his stars.

 

[Brightboat]

It is facts.

Kyrie is not a superstar.

Superstars can carry teams. Kyrie is not that guy.

Unless, he is playing with a legit MVP level guy. Then he can look like the real thing.

Irving has 20 points in the first half and his carrying his team. But oh no, he’s not a superstar

 

[msgkings322]

Too hard for people to see it with the value of hindsight and what these guys actually accomplished.

Scott Brooks was a horrible coach. Let Russ do whatever he wanted it seemed.

But give MJ and Pip a Scott Brooks?

And give Russ and KD a Phil?

History would remember those players differently.

For real and this is why I say you can't actually pick a provable GOAT in a team sport like this....way too many variables, different teams, coaches, eras, positions, leagues, players, teammates...you can make a list of 4-6 guys that all can make a case for it, but can't "prove" a winner.

Both Phil and Larry are in that group. Both have differing but strong cases for it. The fun is the arguing but there is no provable winner. Could make a great case it's not either of them, it's Pop. Or Riley.

For players we all know the list: MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt plus some cases for Bird and Magic. Can anyone definitely say x was greater than y on that list? Of course not. These are the very tippy top but they all have different reasons.

It reminds me of George Clooney's Oscar acceptance speech (hilariously spoofed/clowned by South Park) where he made a good point...how do you say who the "best" actor or actress is? They are all doing completely different things in completely different movies, and all are excellent. He's like "maybe you have the 5 of us play the same role and then compare? It makes no sense"

Well same for sports, there is god tier greatness...those gods are all GOATs really.

 

[tlance]

Irving has 20 points in the first half and his carrying his team. But oh no, he’s not a superstar

He is not.

 

[tlance]

For real and this is why I say you can't actually pick a provable GOAT in a team sport like this....way too many variables, different teams, coaches, eras, positions, leagues, players, teammates...you can make a list of 4-6 guys that all can make a case for it, but can't "prove" a winner.

Both Phil and Larry are in that group. Both have differing but strong cases for it. The fun is the arguing but there is no provable winner. Could make a great case it's not either of them, it's Pop. Or Riley.

For players we all know the list: MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Wilt plus some cases for Bird and Magic. Can anyone definitely say x was greater than y on that list? Of course not. These are the very tippy top but they all have different reasons.

It reminds me of George Clooney's Oscar acceptance speech (hilariously spoofed/clowned by South Park) where he made a good point...how do you say who the "best" actor or actress is? They are all doing completely different things in completely different movies, and all are excellent. He's like "maybe you have the 5 of us play the same role and then compare? It makes no sense"

Well same for sports, there is god tier greatness...those gods are all GOATs really.

I agree mostly.

Larry Brown does not belong in the god tier though.

Riley, Jackson, Pop, K, Wooden, Smith

All up there.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

They actually work very well because it's the same issue.

MJ, Kobe and Westbrook are 3 great players who all had trouble with the idea of sharing the ball.

Phil got through to MJ and Kobe resulting in 11 rings between the 2 of them.

No one got through to Westbrook and he's ringless.

I don't think it's "out there" to wonder if Westbrook could have at least gotten a ring or 2 if he'd had a coach that could convince him to trust his teammates more.

Or for that matter, how many fewer rings might MJ or Kobe have if no one convinced them to trust their teammates.

I get what you're saying here, but Westbrook never has been on the level of MJ or Kobe.

Westbrook was a fantastic talent, but let's separate our greatest players of all time from the guys that have never been top 5. I'm aware that he won an MVP, but his team got dumped in the first round.

 

[tlance]

I get what you're saying here, but Westbrook never has been on the level of MJ or Kobe.

Westbrook was a fantastic talent, but let's separate our greatest players of all time from the guys that have never been top 5. I'm aware that he won an MVP, but his team got dumped in the first round.

I was the one that made that comp, so I will respond.

The comparison I made was Russ to MJ in personality only.

It is difficult to coach an extreme alpha male and get them to fit in to team concept.

We have seen that with Russ his entire career.

He had bad coaching for most of his prime.

MJ and Kobe had Phil.

He got them to buy in and play team basketball.

People been saying all thread it is easy to coach guys like MJ and Kobe.

I can assure you that it is not.

And after watching last dance and the fallout, and seeing how MJ’s teammates felt about him, I am a bit surprised people still think it was an easy job that PJ did.

 

[trojanfan12]

I get what you're saying here, but Westbrook never has been on the level of MJ or Kobe.

Westbrook was a fantastic talent, but let's separate our greatest players of all time from the guys that have never been top 5. I'm aware that he won an MVP, but his team got dumped in the first round.

No one claimed he was. It has nothing to do with their talent. It's only about all 3 having the same issue with passing the ball.

 

[dtgold88]

You remember last time you doubted my experience?

Didn’t go well for you.

Coaching your kids youth league is not real coaching experience.

Larry Brown’s championship team had:

4 players all in their prime who appeared in at least 3 all star games. And the one who didn’t was a 4 time all defense 2nd teamer.


2 players who made all NBA 3 + times

So let’s not pretend that they had nothing.

They were very similar to this year’s Boston Celtics who are 2 wins from a ring with a coach many think isn’t very good.

Not sure which doubting you are talking about. I can agree coaching a youth league does not equal NBA level. Neither does coaching a girls league. so we can end that part of this here.

Larry Browns's title team had..no MVP caliber players on it. Other title teams you saw that could make that claim? Any by Phillip....and how many did he win without either arguably the best player ever or the best in the sport at time (maybe even best 2)?

 

[dtgold88]

I was the one that made that comp, so I will respond.

The comparison I made was Russ to MJ in personality only.

It is difficult to coach an extreme alpha male and get them to fit in to team concept.

We have seen that with Russ his entire career.

He had bad coaching for most of his prime.

MJ and Kobe had Phil.

He got them to buy in and play team basketball.

People been saying all thread it is easy to coach guys like MJ and Kobe.

I can assure you that it is not.

And after watching last dance and the fallout, and seeing how MJ’s teammates felt about him, I am a bit surprised people still think it was an easy job that PJ did.

who said it was easy to coach those guys? some have said it's easier to win with them, than, say, a nice guy with a lot less talent.

and, sure, I have said while you can push back on the Brown doing more with less narrative if you like one can also push back some on the difficulty of winning with all time great players.

 

[dtgold88]

There may well have been other coaches who could have done the same with Kobe, but it was Phil who got through to both.

But we're not discussing other coaches, we're discussing Phil and Larry Brown.

I just don't think Brown could/would have.

OK...and I don't think Phillip gets anywhere without having the best of the best at his disposal. Hell, there were times he had such guys and didn't even make the playoffs.

Never mind we are ignoring Phillip could not make it work long enough with Shaq/Kobe. But, sure, when he had both he could win. Bravo.