Crosby contract

[evolver115]

How is it a choice between the two of them? They've been paying Crosby close to this same salary as the potential contact extension for years and the cap has only increased (and will likely continue to, silly inflation). In '08-09, Crosby was making $8.7 million on a cap of $56.7 million. That is 15.3% of the team's cap just for him, and if remember correctly, the team still had enough salary to have a pretty good season that year. If they sign this deal and he makes $9 million on an estimated cap of $70 million, that is only 12.9% of the team's total cap. And that percentage would theoretically drop a little bit with each passing year. So, there is no reason the team can't sign Malkin and Crosby and continue to have other competitive/talented players on the team.

I've read Darkstone say many times that all long-term deals are bad. No offense, but that is an oversimplification and an incorrect conclusion. SOME (or even most) long-term deals are bad, but all long-term deals are not bad. But there are four basic ways to beat the cap and get more talent than the money you are shelling out:

EL deals - young guys making $800K or just over a million being impact players
Hometown/"win a cup" discounts - guys showing allegience to their team or a vet moving to a winning team for a pay cut to have a shot at a Cup
Post-EL deals - think Claude Giroux, a guy whose value is not yet established and who outplays that first big deal he gets
Long-term deals - premier players or even mid-level players signing long-term deals who continue to perform well while their salary slowly becomes a smaller portion of the salary cap

Most other contracts are pretty set within a certain frame based on the going rate in the market and vary most significantly based on the talent pool that is out there in that particular year.

So, while Crosby's deal may be more RISKY (the longer the deal the more you are gambling on his performance outplaying a steadily diminishing proportion of your cap), it is one way for a GM to get ahead and there is nothing inherently GOOD or BAD about it since the variable of "future performance" is a complete unknown. Risk comes with hazards, but it can also yield rewards, so you can't make a blanket statement that ALL long-term deals are a bad idea. If they sign him to a 4-year $9 million deal now and end up signing another 4-year $11.5/mill per deal in 2017, then this would be a smart deal and the extra money saved could buy you a top defenseman instead of an average defenseman. Something that can make the difference between a 2nd round exit and a Cup. If they sign him to a 4-year deal at $9/mill per now and injuries just devastate him and they don't re-sign him in 4 years, then it's good they avoided the risk. But since we don't know which scenario plays out, its about risk/reward, not good/bad.

And Loco just hit that one out of the park

 

[awaz]

I would have no problem at all with that deal if it turns out to be true. Most of the clubs in hockey today have at least one player with some ridiculous term (Kovy, Ovie, Zetterberg, Keith, Backstrom, Bobby Lou, Bryz, Franzen, Ehrhoff, Hossa, Lecav, etc. etc.) The Pens are fortunate that they don't have one like that, currently. If there is a player on the roster who could conceivably have that type of a contract... it's Sid, and/or Geno.

You can't live in fear of Sid having another complication. Every time anyone steps over those boards, they do it with the knowledge that it could possibly be the last shift they ever skate in the NHL. It's the nature of the beast.

you said it best yourself, they're fortunate not to have one, so why get one?

aside from zetterberg, i bet every team would redo those contracts right now.

 

[evolver115]

you said it best yourself, they're fortunate not to have one, so why get one?

aside from zetterberg, i bet every team would redo those contracts right now.

Because it's basically a forgone conclusion that the Pens are bound to have a contract like that when it comes to the new deals of Crosby and Malkin. What I'm personally glad about is the fact that there isn't some other player on the roster with this type of a deal, already. Fleury and Orpik come to mind.

Like Loco point out, if they were to sign Sid to the contract term/per that is being debated here, it would actually be a net decrease of the percentage of the payroll being owed to Sid. Why would you not take that deal if you were the Pens FO?

 

[Jimmy_the_Tongue]

I don't believe it is Crosby and Malkin are 1A and 1B in Pittsburgh... It's Crosby 1 and Malkin 2. I believe the Pens and Crosby want nothing more than to secure a long term deal. Pens would be happy as pigs in shit to include Geno in the long term as well....but...if that is not possible under a new CBA or for any other reason...Malkin would probably be on the outside looking in. I would love to keep Sid, Geno and Staal...IMO Geno is the expendable one

 

[JustAsking]

I think everyone is correct, an injury clause is probably not permitted.
I think i would still pull the trigger and sign him to that deal though

 

[puckhead]

I think everyone is correct, an injury clause is probably not permitted.
I think i would still pull the trigger and sign him to that deal though

I would too.
The contract would be insured, and if he has to retire early it comes off of the cap anyways.
you want to lock up Crosby forever, then this will get it done.

 

[DChero]

I think everyone is correct, an injury clause is probably not permitted.
I think i would still pull the trigger and sign him to that deal though

That's really the biggest risk. If he plays an average of 65-70 games a year around his current level, he's easily worth that.

 

[evolver115]

What's really incredible to consider is Pittsburgh currently has only one player on the books beyond the 2014-15 season. That player is James Neal.

Shero and the FO have the opportunity to completely revamp the supporting cast of forwards over the next two seasons, and they'll also have the ability pick who they want to extend among the current defensemen.

Creating a new contract with Crosby this upcoming year, and possibly an extension for Malkin next year, and a new supporting cast can then be built around their new deals. I'd say they're in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

 

[dash]

I would too.
The contract would be insured, and if he has to retire early it comes off of the cap anyways.
you want to lock up Crosby forever, then this will get it done.

I have heard/read some articles saying that this is a bone of contention (i.e. insurance companies don't want to be on the hook for the entire length of these long contracts). Somebody posed the question along the lines of "Would you sign Crosby to a 10 year contract if you could only get insurance for the first 7 years?"

I'm not saying that this will come to fruition, but it is being discussed.

 

[DChero]

What's really incredible to consider is Pittsburgh currently has only one player on the books beyond the 2014-15 season. That player is James Neal.

Shero and the FO have the opportunity to completely revamp the supporting cast of forwards over the next two seasons, and they'll also have the ability pick who they want to extend among the current defensemen.

Creating a new contract with Crosby this upcoming year, and possibly an extension for Malkin next year, and a new supporting cast can then be built around their new deals. I'd say they're in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

I did not know that. Good to know that Big Ray is on the job.

 

[evolver115]

I did not know that. Good to know that Big Ray is on the job.

The Penguins have a young crop of defensemen in Despres, Morrow and Harrington who will more than likely be making the jump to the NHL in the next season, or two. All three are on EL contracts that are cheap, and run through at least 2014-15. They also have forwards like Bennett and Uher(just signed an entry level deal on June 1st) who are probably still a ways away, yet. However, they're on a timeline to enter the league just when the Pens should be reloading the forward talent.

 

[awaz]

personally i dont take the risk.. eloco is 100% right its about managing the risk.. just based off long term contracts that have been signed, very few have worked out, so i would avoid it.. even without taking in to account crosby's precarious head..

if i were the pens, i would rather sign cros to 11 mil/4 years then 9 mil/14 years.. even though, with a player like crosby, you probably wouldn't have that level of difference.. the guy wants to win, and he wants to win in pittsburgh.. i hate him with a passion but offseason personality wise, he's everything you could possibly want on your team

and if i were a pens fan, i would trust ray shero.. guys a genius IMO.. if he thinks its the right play, it probably is.. you'd be hard pressed to find someone who's managed the cap era better than he has, both for the current team, and the future

 

[DChero]

The Penguins have a young crop of defensemen in Despres, Morrow and Harrington who will more than likely be making the jump to the NHL in the next season, or two. All three are on EL contracts that are cheap, and run through at least 2014-15. They also have forwards like Bennett and Uher(just signed an entry level deal on June 1st) who are probably still a ways away, yet. However, they're on a timeline to enter the league just when the Pens should be reloading the forward talent.

I think Despres is ready now. He had his shaky moments, but he's ready to full-time it.

By the way, what's the timeframe look like for Bennet? 2-3 years? I haven't really seen much on him.

 

[evolver115]

I think Despres is ready now. He had his shaky moments, but he's ready to full-time it.

By the way, what's the timeframe look like for Bennet? 2-3 years? I haven't really seen much on him.

I know that he signed an entry level deal with Pittsburgh back in April. He had a monster season with Penticton of the BCHL back in 09-10 where he put up 120 points in 50 some games. The last two seasons he has been at the University of Denver where he has struggled a bit, and has had the injury bug. Last season he suffered a wrist injury that required surgery, so... I don't know how much information you can glean from his most recent year.

Right with you on Despres. I thought Morrow could've added something to the lineup this past season, as well. I'm sure we'll be seeing both of these youngins' in the upcoming year, though.

 

[DChero]

I know that he signed an entry level deal with Pittsburgh back in April. He had a monster season with Penticton of the BCHL back in 09-10 where he put up 120 points in 50 some games. The last two seasons he has been at the University of Denver where he has struggled a bit, and has had the injury bug.

That's more than I heard. For me it was drafted in the first round after the '09 season and EL contract a few weeks ago. It's a chore to be a hockey fan in GA...

Back to the Crosby - We need to remember that a lot of those extremely long contracts that didn't work out were use in unrestricted free agency. That's a huge risk because you don't know how that player fits in with your team, the amount of work they put in and whether they're just there for the check or for their teammates.

This is going to be Crosby's third contract with the Penguins. The only factor that anyone worries about it health. Sure, it's a big one, but most contracts come with more questions than that.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

How is it a choice between the two of them? They've been paying Crosby close to this same salary as the potential contact extension for years and the cap has only increased (and will likely continue to, silly inflation). In '08-09, Crosby was making $8.7 million on a cap of $56.7 million. That is 15.3% of the team's cap just for him, and if remember correctly, the team still had enough salary to have a pretty good season that year. If they sign this deal and he makes $9 million on an estimated cap of $70 million, that is only 12.9% of the team's total cap. And that percentage would theoretically drop a little bit with each passing year. So, there is no reason the team can't sign Malkin and Crosby and continue to have other competitive/talented players on the team.

I've read Darkstone say many times that all long-term deals are bad. No offense, but that is an oversimplification and an incorrect conclusion. SOME (or even most) long-term deals are bad, but all long-term deals are not bad. But there are four basic ways to beat the cap and get more talent than the money you are shelling out:

EL deals - young guys making $800K or just over a million being impact players
Hometown/"win a cup" discounts - guys showing allegience to their team or a vet moving to a winning team for a pay cut to have a shot at a Cup
Post-EL deals - think Claude Giroux, a guy whose value is not yet established and who outplays that first big deal he gets
Long-term deals - premier players or even mid-level players signing long-term deals who continue to perform well while their salary slowly becomes a smaller portion of the salary cap

Most other contracts are pretty set within a certain frame based on the going rate in the market and vary most significantly based on the talent pool that is out there in that particular year.

So, while Crosby's deal may be more RISKY (the longer the deal the more you are gambling on his performance outplaying a steadily diminishing proportion of your cap), it is one way for a GM to get ahead and there is nothing inherently GOOD or BAD about it since the variable of "future performance" is a complete unknown. Risk comes with hazards, but it can also yield rewards, so you can't make a blanket statement that ALL long-term deals are a bad idea. If they sign him to a 4-year $9 million deal now and end up signing another 4-year $11.5/mill per deal in 2017, then this would be a smart deal and the extra money saved could buy you a top defenseman instead of an average defenseman. Something that can make the difference between a 2nd round exit and a Cup. If they sign him to a 4-year deal at $9/mill per now and injuries just devastate him and they don't re-sign him in 4 years, then it's good they avoided the risk. But since we don't know which scenario plays out, its about risk/reward, not good/bad.

I don't think it necessarily has to be, just responding to the assertion that locking up Sid long term is good, even if it requires sacrificing Malkin.

 

[dash]

I thought Morrow could've added something to the lineup this past season, as well. I'm sure we'll be seeing both of these youngins' in the upcoming year, though.

Morrow definitely has a good looking offensive game, but he needs to improve on the defensive side. He was exposed quite badly in the WHL Championship series against Edmonton (of course, it didn't help that Mac Carruth can't stop a beachball).

 

[evolver115]

Morrow definitely has a good looking offensive game, but he needs to improve on the defensive side. He was exposed quite badly in the WHL Championship series against Edmonton (of course, it didn't help that Mac Carruth can't stop a beachball).

It was probably worthwhile that Morrow was sent back down, last year. Bylsma and the coaching staff were pretty much blown away with his performance in camp, last season. He made the team in October and actually contributed, but they sent him down, anyway..

I'm excited to see the Pens inject some youth into their lineup, next season. In hindsight while looking at last year, I thought this was an ingredient that was lacking on the NHL roster.

 

[DChero]

It was probably worthwhile that Morrow was sent back down, last year. Bylsma and the coaching staff were pretty much blown away with his performance in camp, last season. He made the team in October and actually contributed, but they sent him down, anyway..

I'm excited to see the Pens inject some youth into their lineup, next season. In hindsight while looking at last year, I thought this was an ingredient that was lacking on the NHL roster.

Paul Martin might be the key here. If he can be moved, it opens up a lot more possibilities.

PS: Post 1492, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue!

PPS: What the hell is in this coffee?

 

[Eddie_Shack]

I gotta say it sounds like crap. Do you think they would risk a contract that long on a guy that injury prone months before the new CBA kicks in? My guess is the Pens will want to wait to see what the new CBA says about injury clauses and LTIR before signing Sid to a contract with that much term.