Cowherd: just admit you're critical of Lebron because you're worried he's better than Jordan

[trojanfan12]

The Bulls never saw a team that could shoot the 3 as good as the Warriors,

And the Warriors never saw a team that could defend the perimeter like the Bulls.

 

[tlance]

Not all accomplishments are created equal. Throughout Lebron's entire career, getting out of the East wasn't nearly as tough as getting out of the West. People want to give Lebron credit for just getting out of the East even though, as Husker points out, it's unlikely the Cavs could have gotten out of the West.

Then, after getting to the finals out of a weak East, he can't finish the deal. End of the day, winning is all that matters and Lebron has a losing record in the finals.



Then you need to think harder. That's how it is for a superstar player like Lebron. When his team wins, he gets the lions share of the credit. Therefore, when they lose, he gets the lions share of the blame. It's always been that way for superstar players.

When Kobe and the Lakers were relevant, Kobe got the majority of the credit when they won and pretty much all of the blame when they didn't.

MJ gets a ton of credit for the Bulls 6 titles, but he also gets blamed for the years prior when they didn't make the finals.

And if his team loses to the Celtics, Raptors or Wizards he deserves the Heat.

If he loses to the Warriors or Spurs, he lost to the better team. Just like when Jordan lost to the Pistons and Celtics. It should not make any difference when the loss takes place.

And no, Jordan does not get blamed for his earlier losses. At least not as far as his legacy is concerned. Pay no mind to the fact that Just about every team the Bulls faced in the Finals was clearly inferior. The only one where they were not clear favorites was year 1 against the Lakers.

LeBron has been the favorite and lost. For that he deserves blame. Yes, the path to the Finals has been easy some years, but the overall path to a ring was harder because Jordan never had to beat a team in the Finals that was on the same level the Bulls were. They were head and shoulders above every other team in the 90s. Much of that was due to Jordan, but he also had a stronger supporting cast than LeBron does now when compared to other top teams of his era.

 

[tlance]

And I must say again.

I am not arguing that LeBron is MJ's equal, but I do think it will end up being closer than most care to admit when it is all said and done. I doubt he surpasses MJ, but last year's ring counts for any 2 of MJ's, IMO. A ring this year would be about the same.

 

[trojanfan12]

And no, Jordan does not get blamed for his earlier losses.

Yes, he absolutely does. The narrative is that MJ couldn't get it done until he learned to involve and trust his teammates more, specifically Pippen.

If he loses to the Warriors or Spurs, he lost to the better team. Just like when Jordan lost to the Pistons and Celtics. It should not make any difference when the loss takes place.

Jordan catches the blame for those losses. The difference is, he made up for it with 6 titles.

LeBron has been the favorite and lost. For that he deserves blame. Yes, the path to the Finals has been easy some years, but the overall path to a ring was harder because Jordan never had to beat a team in the Finals that was on the same level the Bulls were. They were head and shoulders above every other team in the 90s. Much of that was due to Jordan, but he also had a stronger supporting cast than LeBron does now when compared to other top teams of his era.

Fair or not, Lebron is the preeminent star in the game and he gets the credit when they win and the blame when they lose. Just like every other player at that level.

I also disagree with your premise that the Bulls were head and shoulders above every team they faced in the finals. They faced loaded teams with Hall of Fame players on their roster. It was MJ who was head and shoulders above the other Hall of Famers they faced.

 

[trojanfan12]

I doubt he surpasses MJ, but last year's ring counts for any 2 of MJ's, IMO. A ring this year would be about the same.

lol @counting for 2 vs. any 1 of MJ's. It's one ring and counts as one ring.

Shit, if Lebron gets credit for 2 rings for last year, then Magic's first ring with the Lakers should count as 3.

After all, he was a rookie who won the finals MVP, and had to play all 5 positions in order for the Lakers to win that title. Not to mention that, if memory serves, his team was the underdogs in that series.

 

[lebron23james]

And if his team loses to the Celtics, Raptors or Wizards he deserves the Heat.

If he loses to the Warriors or Spurs, he lost to the better team. Just like when Jordan lost to the Pistons and Celtics. It should not make any difference when the loss takes place.

And no, Jordan does not get blamed for his earlier losses. At least not as far as his legacy is concerned. Pay no mind to the fact that Just about every team the Bulls faced in the Finals was clearly inferior. The only one where they were not clear favorites was year 1 against the Lakers.

LeBron has been the favorite and lost. For that he deserves blame. Yes, the path to the Finals has been easy some years, but the overall path to a ring was harder because Jordan never had to beat a team in the Finals that was on the same level the Bulls were. They were head and shoulders above every other team in the 90s. Much of that was due to Jordan, but he also had a stronger supporting cast than LeBron does now when compared to other top teams of his era.

You learn something everyday at SportsHoopla, losing in the 1st or 2nd round is now better than making it to the finals

The hate of lebron has caused serious brain damage

 

[lebron23james]

Incorrect. If the losses didn't matter, Kareem would be considered GOAT. He has as many rings as MJ, is the leagues all time leading scorer and has 1 more league MVP award than MJ.

He's not GOAT because he has lost in the finals and MJ never did. So, losing in the finals does, in fact, count against him.

And if wins are the only thing that counts, we can move Lebron further down the list of all time greats since MJ, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Timmy and Shaq all have more rings than Lebron and none of them have a losing record in the finals.

Jordan played 15 season and lost 9 of them

Lebron has played 13 seasons and lose 10 of them

Lebron had the much worse supporting cast in most cases and faced much better competition.

Jordans team was never the underdog in the finals because the teams he was playing were a joke for the most part, well his team was stacked. Jordan wasn't putting up some magical numbers vs what lebron was putting up. Lebron was the best player on both teams as we all saw last year in the finals and the year before. It all comes down to the rest of his team.....Jordans team won 55 games without him. Tell me how the cavs did and are doing without lebron? He didn't have any better stats than lebron, and in most cases he was actually much worse at multiple things. He wasn't playing other super staked teams like lebron, hence making his 6-0 less impressive except to the casual idiot fan. His 6-0 is about as relevant as lebrons 7 times out of the east.

 

[Wamu]

He's already shopping it to networks

Damn. Can't say I'm surprised though.

 

[Wamu]

And my point is he's crazy like a fox. He's riding the crazy to getting paid, just like Dennis Rodman and Skip Bayless and Stephen A and every other attention grabbing knucklehead. People like crazy, even if it's to rag on them. Like we are doing right now.

Obviously Lavar doesn't really think he could have beaten Jordan one on one. He says it, we make fun of it, he gets paid.

Didn't also recently say Lonzo's better than Steph Curry? I thought I heard that earlier in the week.

 

[Wamu]

I would laugh, but honestly - I can't blame the kid for high expectations. He's a child. The father should have been more tempered though and been the voice of reason.

Nothing wrong w/ having high expectations but for him to say he's gonna win 5 before he even has played his 1st game is a bit over the top.

 

[tlance]

Yes, he absolutely does. The narrative is that MJ couldn't get it done until he learned to involve and trust his teammates more, specifically Pippen.



Jordan catches the blame for those losses. The difference is, he made up for it with 6 titles.



Fair or not, Lebron is the preeminent star in the game and he gets the credit when they win and the blame when they lose. Just like every other player at that level.

I also disagree with your premise that the Bulls were head and shoulders above every team they faced in the finals. They faced loaded teams with Hall of Fame players on their roster. It was MJ who was head and shoulders above the other Hall of Famers they faced.

So did LeBron.

He had to go through Duncan, Dirk, KD, and Curry. All sure fire future HOF players. NOt to mention others on those rosters who will be HOF players also. Duncan is a top 10 all time player. Time will tell where Curry and KD end up, but if they continue down the path they are heading, they could easily have better resumes than Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Payton and the other star players that stood in MJ's path.

Hell, you could argue that Curry's resume is already stronger than anybody MJ beat in the Finals outside of Magic.

Yeah, MJ was the best, but do not forget that in the year he sat out, the Bulls took the Knicks to game 7 and probably should have won the series if not for a highly controversial call at the end of game 5. Those same Knicks lost to the Rockets in game 7 of the NBA Finals. That Bulls team was still pretty darn good without Jordan.

Take LeBron off the Cavs and they have no shot getting out of the first round, if they even make the playoffs.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Nothing wrong w/ having high expectations but for him to say he's gonna win 5 before he even has played his 1st game is a bit over the top.

Oh I agree with that, but then I think about what most kids his age will say and it's over the top, but not unusual to me to hear young boys talking crazy talk. They are kids and what I have always tried to remember is that in their first few years in the NBA, they have to grow up before we will know what the finished product will be. I seriously doubt many of us were mature at his age either

 

[tlance]

More future HOF players he saw in the Finals:

Westbrook
Harden
Parker
Ginobili
Kidd
D. Robinson
K. Leonard?

 

[True Lakers Fan]

You learn something everyday at SportsHoopla, losing in the 1st or 2nd round is now better than making it to the finals

The hate of LeBron has caused serious brain damage

Your response amazes me - First you emphasize that titles alone isn't the determining factor(it really is the biggest part), then you talk all of this shit about Michael Jordan's losing records. WTF dude - Michael won six championships and never lost. LeBron won 3 titles and lost the ones that Michael won. That's how LeBron will be remembered

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Your chart doesn't mention steals...

I will have to go back and check that out - I would also like to know the blocks per game, personal fouls and turnovers. For me though - I have to admit that LeBron's stats are closer to Michael's than one would think - With the exception of the important win. In the end, people are going to remember this

Michael Jordan - Six championships
Kareem Abdul Jabaar - Six championships
Magic Johnson - Five Championships
Kobe Bryant - Five Championships
*Lebron James Three Championship

*This number could change and if LeBron wins several more championships before his career ends, than the perception of him would change signicantly.

 

[tlance]

Your response amazes me - First you emphasize that titles alone isn't the determining factor(it really is the biggest part), then you talk all of this shit about Michael Jordan's losing records. WTF dude - Michael won six championships and never lost. LeBron won 3 titles and lost the ones that Michael won. That's how LeBron will be remembered

TLF

That is the whole point. Jordan did lose. He lost 9 times.

The mystical 6-0 Finals record is blown ups far more than it should be. 6 is the number that matters, just like 3 is the number that matters for LeBron.

He does have to win 1 or 2 more to make it a legit conversation, but the Finals loses are no worse for LeBron (or at least should not be for anyone with any common sense) than any of Jordan's 9 losses before the Finals. One can make a case for it being better, not worse.

 

[TJL]

I will have to go back and check that out - I would also like to know the blocks per game, personal fouls and turnovers. For me though - I have to admit that LeBron's stats are closer to Michael's than one would think - With the exception of the important win. In the end, people are going to remember this

Michael Jordan - Six championships
Kareem Abdul Jabaar - Six championships
Magic Johnson - Five Championships
Kobe Bryant - Five Championships
*Lebron James Three Championship

*This number could change and if LeBron wins several more championships before his career ends, than the perception of him would change signicantly.

Yea, people get pissed at the fact a team accomplishment such as titles are brought up in these convo's, but when you're talking about the top 10 players of all time and the numbers are close in comparison, it's one of the last and most important things to go on.


LeBron's numbers are second only to Jordan, he's got better numbers imo than KAJ, Magic, or Kobe

LeBron is second to a lot of people though in championships, the other thing that sets Jordan apart is the 6/6 FMVP's, LeBron is 3/3 but one would think at his progressing age that if he were to get a few more rings it might end up going to a guy like Kyrie.

 

[trojanfan12]

Lebron had the much worse supporting cast in most cases and faced much better competition

He had a worse supporting cast once, his first season. Ever since then, he's had at least 2 other all stars on his team.

The competition he faced was not better than the competition MJ faced. Pretty much every team that MJ faced had 1 or 2 Hall of Famers and another and/or another all star on the team. The competition that Labron faced might have been as good, but it definitely wasn't better than what MJ faced. MJ's teams just did a better job of beating those teams because MJ was that good.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

TLF

That is the whole point. Jordan did lose. He lost 9 times.

The mystical 6-0 Finals record is blown ups far more than it should be. 6 is the number that matters, just like 3 is the number that matters for LeBron.

He does have to win 1 or 2 more to make it a legit conversation, but the Finals loses are no worse for LeBron (or at least should not be for anyone with any common sense) than any of Jordan's 9 losses before the Finals. One can make a case for it being better, not worse.

What in the hell is he going by because I know you're to smart to buy that bucket of shit. I don't think anyone is going to count the losses in the playoffs or finals if the person actually walked away with the championship. That's a stretch for even some one as retarded as these to dipsticks isn't it? I might need some more help here because I do not follow the logic of a mad man

 

[trojanfan12]

So did LeBron.

As he should. He's the star. He gets the credit when the win and the blame when they lose. That's it works.

Time will tell where Curry and KD end up, but if they continue down the path they are heading, they could easily have better resumes than Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Payton and the other star players that stood in MJ's path.

You forgot some of Hall of Famers and all stars that MJ faced. Also, KD and Curry may end up with better resume's. But part of the reason for that is that they didn't have to go through MJ.