Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[RazorsEdge]

Randy Johnson = most dominant SP of all time.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Randy Johnson = most dominant SP of all time.

I wouldn't argue with that.

 

[broncosmitty]

I love Lefty Grove as well amazing pitcher...

I don't want to seem as I don't think Sandy was great. I just don't think his greatness was long for GOAT.

It's all splitting hairs when whittling down the Top 20(or whatever) to who we think is Best.

Speaking of the Baltimore Orioles, theirs is story I really want, and need to read for of. They had a lot of talent run thru their system as an unaffiliated minor league team. Kinda crazy.

 

[Nosferatu]

I wouldn't argue with that.

I would but what good would it do?

 

[broncosmitty]

So why is Tim Lincecum basically laughed at? He is basically Sandy Koufax-lite.

2 CY awards
2 No-Nos
3 elite-level seasons
3 rings

If he were to retire after this season, he should be a HOFer by your logic. Even the most die-hard Giants homers say that he needs to improve on his resume to even be in the discussion for HOF (like 5 years or so as an elite closer). And he just finished his age-30 season.

I think Timmy will be a HOFer. Not exactly sure how he'll go about it. But I think he'll find a way.

 

[Nosferatu]

Ya know maybe I should have split this into two polls, Best pitcher of all time and most dominating pitcher of all time or something.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Really, if you ignore PED allegations, Roger Clemens is probably the best choice

I would but what good would it do?

I think your post has done what was intended. Lead to some great discussion. Everyone is always gonna have a different opinion on topics like this, which is why I love them.

I like to voice my opinion, no matter how unpopular or idiotic they are, and these are good formats to express them in.

 

[Ritzarmy]

Walter Johnson easily!!! I am also surprised Nolan Ryan didn't make this list of players but don't think he was the best or even Top 3 on the list provided.
1. Walter Johnson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Cy Young
4. Randy Johnson
5. Nolan Ryan

My favorite pitcher was Fernando Valenzuela.

 

[RazorsEdge]

I would but what good would it do?

None.

 

[calsnowskier]

You are missing one big difference Koufax wasn't great then less than average after he was great. I would OF taken your post seriously had it been relevant.

Koufax had 5 elite season, 2 near-elite seasons and 3 middling seasons.

Timmeh had 3 elite seasons, 1 near-elite season and 2 middling seasons (and two absolute train-wrecks).

If Koufax is in the "best ever" discussion, than Timmeh is in the HOF discussion.

I don't believe Timmeh is in the HOF discussion...

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Timmy will be a HOFer. Not exactly sure how he'll go about it. But I think he'll find a way.

I just dont see it. While he has an interesting resume, he needs to add to it to get into the Hall. And I just see him being an elite or near-elite pitcher in any role, ever again.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

in an incomplete analysis, the best pitcher of all time is tommy bond...

but on this list it was christy mathewson

 

[calsnowskier]

in an incomplete analysis, the best pitcher of all time is tommy bond...

but on this list it was christy mathewson

If you STARTED your analysis with him, than OK.

 

[Nosferatu]

Koufax had 5 elite season, 2 near-elite seasons and 3 middling seasons.

Timmeh had 3 elite seasons, 1 near-elite season and 2 middling seasons (and two absolute train-wrecks).

If Koufax is in the "best ever" discussion, than Timmeh is in the HOF discussion.

I don't believe Timmeh is in the HOF discussion...

You are not seeing the biggest difference. Sandy had his "middling" seasons at the beginning of his career at ages 19 and 20. then got better then was dominating, Timmy had a couple excellent seasons then turned into a less than average player, that changes the view of him. He's pitched eight years in the league and already has the ERA up to 3.59. Even after those first few years where Sandy was less than amazing he still finished with an ERA of 2.76. He also won 3 CY Young awards in his last 4 years the last being his final season at age 30, I might be wrong but I don't see Timmy doing anything even close to that.

It's not a comparison that works no matter how much you want it to.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Definitely. Sad thing is, a guy like Maddux would get overlooked today by scouts because of the fastball topping out in the high 80's.

Maddux threw harder than that for quite a while though, he wasn't 40 years old for his entire career. He threw 92-93 mph with movement during the years he established his HoF resume, plenty fast enough for a starter.

 

[DragonfromTO]

You are not seeing the biggest difference. Sandy had his "middling" seasons at the beginning of his career at ages 19 and 20. then got better then was dominating, Timmy had a couple excellent seasons then turned into a less than average player, that changes the view of him. He's pitched eight years in the league and already has the ERA up to 3.59. Even after those first few years where Sandy was less than amazing he still finished with an ERA of 2.76. He also won 3 CY Young awards in his last 4 years the last being his final season at age 30, I might be wrong but I don't see Timmy doing anything even close to that.

It's not a comparison that works no matter how much you want it to.

The comparison that I thought of actually played right in your own backyard. Had to pitch in the majors before he was ready to because of MLB rules, just like Koufax did. Had a great peak before badly injuring his shoulder at age 31, two Cy Young Awards and should have won a 3rd in the year separating them, which would have made it 3 in a row.

Unlike Koufax though he tried to come back from the shoulder injury and had one lousy MLB season before re-injuring it.

And you know what? I didn't even realize that he has a better career ERA+ than Koufax too. And his WAR is slightly lower than Koufax (not surprising just based on how workloads have changed), but very very close.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Yeah, but half the pitchers were shooting stuff up their ass as well. Mathewson had a 2.13 ERA for 17 years, Johnson a 2.16 for 20 years. Most historians had Johnson at 98-102 and Mathewson at 96-100. They didn't come out of the game in the 6th inning for the bullpen, which means they faced the same batter's an extra time through the lineup. Give me those guys any day

Do you have a link? I'd love to know what evidence they used for this estimation and how they used it.

As you might be able to tell, I'm very skeptical of that claim.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Yeah, but half the pitchers were shooting stuff up their ass as well. Mathewson had a 2.13 ERA for 17 years, Johnson a 2.16 for 20 years. Most historians had Johnson at 98-102 and Mathewson at 96-100. They didn't come out of the game in the 6th inning for the bullpen, which means they faced the same batter's an extra time through the lineup. Give me those guys any day

OK, so without doing much research at all I found this on Johnson's wikipedia page, the very first place that I looked.

"Although a lack of precision instruments prevented accurate measurement of his fastball, in 1917, a Bridgeport, Connecticut munitions laboratory recorded Johnson's fastball at 134 feet per second, which is equal to 91.36 miles per hour (147.03 km/h), a velocity which was virtually unique in Johnson's day, with the possible exception of Smoky Joe Wood. "

While they didn't have the instruments that we have today I find it awfully tough to believe that they were registering numbers 10-15% lower than reality for some reason.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Do you have a link? I'd love to know what evidence they used for this estimation and how they used it.

As you might be able to tell, I'm very skeptical of that claim.

Bro, let google be your friend. Baseball Almanac, fastest pitcher ever. Johnson threw at a clip of 137 feet per second in one test, which calculated out to 99.7.

It's laughable that you think men from the past couldn't throw as hard as men of today. How does that equate in hitting? All the guys that hit 400-600 homers back in the day without the use of juice. How many guys today are hitting 40 a year since the stricter steroid policies are in place?

 

[broncosmitty]

My math could be off, but 137ft/second is a little under 93.5mph.

Either way, dude threw hard as hell for his day.

Anybody else remember the story of Bob Feller throwing opposite of a guy on a motorcycle going 100? Did that happen, or is it just some memory I created?