Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[Chewbaccer]

Maddux is the best pitcher I ever personally saw. He defines the word "pitcher" for me. An artist on the mound.

Definitely. Sad thing is, a guy like Maddux would get overlooked today by scouts because of the fastball topping out in the high 80's.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson

Everyone else.

Combined over 30 years of sub 2.20 ERA's.

 

[Chewbaccer]

You've gotta be great to stick around nearly 3 decades. Hell, Ryan had some great seasons at a very advanced age for a pitcher.

 

[StanMarsh51]

He also lead the league in strikeouts 11 times, stuck out more than 300 6 times, has the most career strikeouts by a longshot, allowed the fewest hits per 9 innings ever and pitched a lot of innings every year.

I can see the other side of the argument, and while I don't think he's the best, he is solidly in my top 10.

But at the same time, he led the league in walks 8x, had numerous seasons where he walked 200+ batters, and for a guy with the fewest hits/9 innings, he has an unimpressive 1.25 WHIP (even less impressive when you consider he pitched virtually his entire career during a pitcher friendly time).

Just 5x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in innings pitched, and that was largely due to him being erratic/inconsistent. He had a lot of games where he'd put on a ton of runners and couldn't go deep into the game as a result.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson

Everyone else.

Combined over 30 years of sub 2.20 ERA's.

All in the dead ball era.

They have their place in history, but I give the edge to the guys pitching in the heart of the steroid era. Hell, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Pedro had dead ball era stats in some seasons during the steroid era.

 

[Nosferatu]

Ryan's probably not in the conversation for top 10 ever, let alone best ever.

Good pitcher who pitched for a very long time...he didn't have that many great/Cy caliber seasons, which is why he doesn't belong here.

Agreed.

 

[jdwills126]

Give me a break...

The majority of the teams Ryan was on had winning records, and for his overall career, his teams' collective winning record was better than .500.

Tom Seaver's teams collectively had a very similar win percentage to Ryan's teams, but that didn't stop Seaver from putting up a much better winning percentage, no?


The 'he played on bad teams' argument can only take you so far. At some point you're going to need to realize that Ryan was very beatable, often because he walked so many guys, fielded his position poorly, and on many occasions was knocked out of games early.

5 playoff appearance in 27 years? Thats not pitching on many great teams.

Plus it's 27 years for a power pitcher, the only other guy comparable is Randy Johnson who pitched 22 years. And on better teams. Ryan averaged 246 KO a season over his 27 years with a 3.29 While Randy Johnson averaged 271 KO and a 3.29 over 5 years less.

Seaver pitched for 20 years all but 5 in the NL without the DH and pitching less innings. He also got to pitch in the center of the sports world New York. Can't take away the media hype from playing in that city.

 

[Chewbaccer]

But at the same time, he led the league in walks 8x, had numerous seasons where he walked 200+ batters, and for a guy with the fewest hits/9 innings, he has an unimpressive 1.25 WHIP (even less impressive when you consider he pitched virtually his entire career during a pitcher friendly time).

Just 5x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in innings pitched, and that was largely due to him being erratic/inconsistent. He had a lot of games where he'd put on a ton of runners and couldn't go deep into the game as a result.

I don't mind walks if the hits are way down, which obviously they were since he allowed the fewest hits per 9 ever.

 

[RoboticDreams]

Babe Ruth and Don Drysdale should be included.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Babe Ruth and Don Drysdale should be included.

Drysdale had the Tom Glavine syndrome most of his career. Overshadowed by a teammate.

 

[UK Cowboy]

All in the dead ball era.

They have their place in history, but I give the edge to the guys pitching in the heart of the steroid era. Hell, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Pedro had dead ball era stats in some seasons during the steroid era.

Yeah, but half the pitchers were shooting stuff up their ass as well. Mathewson had a 2.13 ERA for 17 years, Johnson a 2.16 for 20 years. Most historians had Johnson at 98-102 and Mathewson at 96-100. They didn't come out of the game in the 6th inning for the bullpen, which means they faced the same batter's an extra time through the lineup. Give me those guys any day

 

[Mondo Jay]

But at the same time, he led the league in walks 8x, had numerous seasons where he walked 200+ batters, and for a guy with the fewest hits/9 innings, he has an unimpressive 1.25 WHIP (even less impressive when you consider he pitched virtually his entire career during a pitcher friendly time).

Just 5x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in innings pitched, and that was largely due to him being erratic/inconsistent. He had a lot of games where he'd put on a ton of runners and couldn't go deep into the game as a result.

His claim to fame was the K and I think that if also what hurt him from being more of a complete pitcher. He wanted to strike everyone out and often did...but he also walked a ton of batters and didn't seem to ever pitch to contact. Once he really developed his wicked 12-6 hook and his control improved, he was a much better pitcher (much later in his career).
Being the power pitcher he was for 27 years is amazing.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Yeah, but half the pitchers were shooting stuff up their ass as well. Mathewson had a 2.13 ERA for 17 years, Johnson a 2.16 for 20 years. Most historians had Johnson at 98-102 and Mathewson at 96-100. They didn't come out of the game in the 6th inning for the bullpen, which means they faced the same batter's an extra time through the lineup. Give me those guys any day

Well, if Maddux was shooting up, he got ripped off.

The 4 guys I mentioned went deep in games more times than not.

Oh, and they did it in the steroid era, with a live ball.

I'll take the guys pitching against better hitters with a ball that wasn't dead.

 

[broncosmitty]

Drysdale had the Tom Glavine syndrome most of his career. Overshadowed by a teammate.

Not really.

Koufax wasnt impressive long enough to overshadow anyone's career. Neither he nor Drysdale should be in this conversation IMO.

 

[broncosmitty]

Well, if Maddux was shooting up, he got ripped off.

The 4 guys I mentioned went deep in games more times than not.

Oh, and they did it in the steroid era, with a live ball.

I'll take the guys pitching against better hitters with a ball that wasn't dead.

When did the "dead ball" era end to you?

 

[StanMarsh51]

5 playoff appearance in 27 years? Thats not pitching on many great teams.

Plus it's 27 years for a power pitcher, the only other guy comparable is Randy Johnson who pitched 22 years. And on better teams. Ryan averaged 246 KO a season over his 27 years with a 3.29 While Randy Johnson averaged 271 KO and a 3.29 over 5 years less.

Seaver pitched for 20 years all but 5 in the NL without the DH and pitching less innings. He also got to pitch in the center of the sports world New York. Can't take away the media hype from playing in that city.

So if you didn't make the playoffs you were on a bad team? Once again, give me a break.

The bolded above shows your ignorance on this topic.....you're seriouslly comparing the ERAs for a pitcher who pitched in the pitcher friendly 1960s-1980s to someone who pitched throughout the pitcher friendly 1990s and 2000s?

Johnson's career ERA was 35% better than the league average during his career. Ryan's ERA was 12% better than the league average during his career. Which was more impressive?

Do you also think 35 HR in 1976 is just as impressive as 35 HR in 2001?

 

[Chewbaccer]

When did the "dead ball" era end to you?

I'd go with 1920, when Johnson's era shot up above 3 for all but 2 of the remaining 8 seasons of his career.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't mind walks if the hits are way down, which obviously they were since he allowed the fewest hits per 9 ever.

But it looks like overall, it certainly hurt him in the ERA department. He wasn't all that great at preventing runs, as evidenced by not that often being among the league leaders.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Not really.

Koufax wasnt impressive long enough to overshadow anyone's career. Neither he nor Drysdale should be in this conversation IMO.

Agreed

 

[calsnowskier]

All in the dead ball era.

They have their place in history, but I give the edge to the guys pitching in the heart of the steroid era. Hell, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Pedro had dead ball era stats in some seasons during the steroid era.

You realize it wasn't JUST hitters that used PEDs, right?

As a matter of fact, I saw it published once a few years back that of all players "caught" through the testing system, something 55% of the players were pitchers! not hitters.