Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[Chewbaccer]

You realize it wasn't JUST hitters that used PEDs, right?

As a matter of fact, I saw it published once a few years back that of all players "caught" through the testing system, something 55% of the players were pitchers! not hitters.

Like I said, if Maddux was using, he got ripped off.

But regardless, I'll take the guys who faced hitters in the most hitter friendly era in the history of the league.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

I wouldn't be afraid to give the rwak to Bob Gibson on short notice either.

 

[Chewbaccer]

I'd take Bob Gibson over the first 4 listed.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'd go with 1920, when Johnson's era shot up above 3 for all but 2 of the remaining 8 seasons of his career.

He did get hurt and was already at the end of his prime.......

But I think of 1920 as the general cutoff too.

 

[broncosmitty]

Lefty Grove should be mentioned before most of these guys as well.

 

[DragonfromTO]

But a no-hitter is just 1 game. I'd rather have my pitcher have a great season than a single epic game.

For a guy who played 25 years, just 3x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in ERA, with just 2x in the top 5. I agree that longevity is a skill and adds career value, but you gotta do better than a couple of great seasons to be in the conversation for best ever.

There was an article I read a while back (I think a Rob Neyer article) that pointed out that if you were to look at each seasons in Ryan's career, he was outperformed by a teammate in the majority of those seasons (whether it be Tanana, Mike Scott, Kevin Brown, etc). A guy who's a top 10 pitcher ever should be the best pitcher on the majority of his teams, unless he's playing with another legend.

In order for Maddux to get his ERA+ to match Ryan's over the same number of innings he'd have to have thrown 377.2 more innings and given up 470 earned runs, for an 11.20 ERA. That sort of says it all about the longevity... it's nice, but it's not enough here.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

In his prime Tom Glavine could kill a microbe with every pitch he tossed. One of the best at offspeed and location.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Yet in the 30 years he pitched he still finished with a 3.2 era which is very good. i would definitely rank him in the top ten, he should have been a choice on the poll.

League average ERA while he pitched was 3.57 though. For comparison, when Maddux pitched it was 4.17. And yet he still has a lower raw career ERA than Ryan.

 

[Chewbaccer]

In his prime Tom Glavine could kill a microbe with every pitch he tossed. One of the best at offspeed and location.

I loved Glavine, but he was overshadowed by a teammate.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Steve Carlton would have helped his chances if he would have retired a few years earlier. Hell, in 72, the Phillies won 59 games. Steve Carlton won 27 of them.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Well, if Maddux was shooting up, he got ripped off.

The 4 guys I mentioned went deep in games more times than not.

Oh, and they did it in the steroid era, with a live ball.

I'll take the guys pitching against better hitters with a ball that wasn't dead.

Not everyone on the sauce has 20" guns. Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods aren't exactly Dorian Yates. Heck, even Rocket, you'd never look at him and know he was juicing. Big Unit may not have, but he's another guy who was better later on than early in his career

 

[Nosferatu]

Not really.

Koufax wasnt impressive long enough to overshadow anyone's career. Neither he nor Drysdale should be in this conversation IMO.

You lost me here, Sandy is one of the most dominating pitchers of all time and absolutely deserves to be in this conversation. The topic is best pitcher of all time not best pitcher who pitched 20 years.

There's a reason his nickname was "Left arm of God".

 

[Chewbaccer]

Not everyone on the sauce has 20" guns. Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods aren't exactly Dorian Yates. Heck, even Rocket, you'd never look at him and know he was juicing. Big Unit may not have, but he's another guy who was better later on than early in his career

Something about a guy that was focused on nibbling corners, hitting spots and outsmarting the hitter and had a "fastball" that topped out at 88 MPH doesn't strike me as a roider.

 

[Nosferatu]

Something about a guy that was focused on nibbling corners, hitting spots and outsmarting the hitter and had a "fastball" that topped out at 88 MPH doesn't strike me as a roider.

PED's aren't only used to build muscle...

 

[Chewbaccer]

You lost me here, Sandy is one of the most dominating pitchers of all time and absolutely deserves to be in this conversation. The topic is best pitcher of all time not best pitcher who pitched 20 years.

There's a reason his nickname was "Left arm of God".

He had an amazing peak, you can't deny that, but if we're ranking the best all time, I'll take the guy who had a great peak and a long career.

 

[Chewbaccer]

PED's aren't only used to build muscle...

Well fuck dude, I guess everyone was using them.

If Greg Maddux was juicing. NOBODY was clean.

 

[broncosmitty]

You lost me here, Sandy is one of the most dominating pitchers of all time and absolutely deserves to be in this conversation. The topic is best pitcher of all time not best pitcher who pitched 20 years.

There's a reason his nickname was "Left arm of God".

He had five great seasons. 3 of his other 7 seasons his ERA was over 4 and another at 3.91. I've never understood why he gets elevated so much historically.

Best five year run conversation I could see him being at or near the top. But I think he's one of the most overrated pitchers when talking career.

 

[Nosferatu]

He had an amazing peak, you can't deny that, but if we're ranking the best all time, I'll take the guy who had a great peak and a long career.

I'm not gonna penalize a guy for walking away at 30... He had 4 no-no's and 3 Cy Young awards, I believe he is the youngest player ever elected to the HOF. I would take Koufax 100 out of 100 times vs Nolan Ryan or just about any pitcher in the history of the game.

 

[Nosferatu]

He had five great seasons. 3 of his other 7 seasons his ERA was over 4 and another at 3.91. I've never understood why he gets elevated so much historically.

Best five year run conversation I could see him being at or near the top. But I think he's one of the most overrated pitchers when talking career.

Yeah, those early years between 19 - 23 years old. If you actually look at his early years he was a little wild but still a very good young pitcher at 21 years old he had a SO/9 over 10.

I don't need to play "IF" with Sandy he was as good as it gets. Because he walked away way to soon shouldn't deflect from his greatness...

EDIT... I find it funny you won't include Sandy in the GOAT convo and say he's overrated but think Barry Sanders was the GOAT...

 

[Chewbaccer]

I'm not gonna penalize a guy for walking away at 30... He had 4 no-no's and 3 Cy Young awards, I believe he is the youngest player ever elected to the HOF. I would take Koufax 100 out of 100 times vs Nolan Ryan or just about any pitcher in the history of the game.

I'll take Koufax's best years over Ryan's best years, but if I want a career, I'll take Ryan.

Longevity is impressive, at least to me.

Koufax had one of the best 5 year spans of all time, but career wise, he's not top 10 IMO.