Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[MilkSpiller22]

from the list, the 2 Worst are clearly Maddux and Carlton...

Not sure yet who is the best... But i will come up with an answer soon enough

 

[RoboticDreams]

He had five great seasons. 3 of his other 7 seasons his ERA was over 4 and another at 3.91. I've never understood why he gets elevated so much historically.

Best five year run conversation I could see him being at or near the top. But I think he's one of the most overrated pitchers when talking career.

Agreed

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No chance it is Nolan Ryan, his ERA and WHIP were nothing special... It was only his Ks...

 

[broncosmitty]

Yeah, those early years between 19 - 23 years old. If you actually look at his early years he was a little wild but still a very good young pitcher at 21 years old he had a SO/9 over 10.

I don't need to play "IF" with Sandy he was as good as it gets. Because he walked away way to soon shouldn't deflect from his greatness...

Im not playing any ifs.

He had five great years and 7 other ones. And unlike other greats (Carlton is a fine example) he didn't have sunset seasons muddying up his career numbers.


Grove, to me, is the best lefty.

 

[Chewbaccer]

from the list, the 2 Worst are clearly Maddux and Carlton...

Not sure yet who is the best... But i will come up with an answer soon enough

Gonna have to disagree with you.

Maddux had some amazing seasons in the 90's, he might not be the best, but he's not the worst on the list, and Carlton just hung around too long, in his time, he was one of the best.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Im not playing any ifs.

He had five great years and 7 other ones. And unlike other greats (Carlton is a fine example) he didn't have sunset seasons muddying up his career numbers.


Grove, to me, is the best lefty.

Agreed, except I have the Big Unit as the best lefty.

 

[Nosferatu]

Im not playing any ifs.

He had five great years and 7 other ones. And unlike other greats (Carlton is a fine example) he didn't have sunset seasons muddying up his career numbers.


Grove, to me, is the best lefty.

The only thing Grove is better than Sandy at is length of career and stats accumulated because he played into his 40's. Sandy is better in every other way possible.

Grove was 25 in his rookie season Sandy was 19... Wonder if Grove would have some bumps on his resume if he started at 19?

 

[broncosmitty]

I'll take Koufax's best years over Ryan's best years, but if I want a career, I'll take Ryan.

Longevity is impressive, at least to me.

Koufax had one of the best 5 year spans of all time, but career wise, he's not top 10 IMO.

If you look at it from the standpoint of you get a pitcher for his entire career. Cy Young, Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson really take big leap in value IMO.(Id take Randy well ahead of Nolan in whatever format were dealing with btw.) Be nice to know a guy like that is in your rotation for an entire generation.

But there's also PRIME guys, like Sandy and Pedro. And Kershaw right now. (Kershaw could be more than a prime guy. He's only coming into the age Sandy has his incredible stretch.)

 

[DragonfromTO]

5 playoff appearance in 27 years? Thats not pitching on many great teams.

Plus it's 27 years for a power pitcher, the only other guy comparable is Randy Johnson who pitched 22 years. And on better teams. Ryan averaged 246 KO a season over his 27 years with a 3.29 While Randy Johnson averaged 271 KO and a 3.29 over 5 years less.

Seaver pitched for 20 years all but 5 in the NL without the DH and pitching less innings. He also got to pitch in the center of the sports world New York. Can't take away the media hype from playing in that city.

His teams may have only made the playoffs 5 times, but he was at the other end of the spectrum even less often... he only pitched on one 90+ loss team.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Gonna have to disagree with you.

Maddux had some amazing seasons in the 90's, he might not be the best, but he's not the worst on the list, and Carlton just hung around too long, in his time, he was one of the best.

you have to realize though that was not a knock on either... the list is damn good!!!

 

[broncosmitty]

The only thing Grove is better than Sandy at is length of career and stats accumulated because he played into his 40's. Sandy is better in every other way possible.

Not sure how you come with "in every other way."

You love Koufax, it's why I don't ever speak on the topic during Mocks.

 

[Chewbaccer]

you have to realize though that was not a knock on either... the list is damn good!!!

That is very true.

 

[DragonfromTO]

The only thing Grove is better than Sandy at is length of career and stats accumulated because he played into his 40's. Sandy is better in every other way possible.

Grove was 25 in his rookie season Sandy was 19... Wonder if Grove would have some bumps on his resume if he started at 19?

Grove didn't start in the majors late because he wasn't good enough though, he was dominating for the (minor league) Baltimore Orioles and they refused to sell him even though multiple MLB teams made large offers.

 

[Nosferatu]

Not sure how you come with "in every other way."

You love Koufax, it's why I don't ever speak on the topic during Mocks.

I love Lefty Grove as well amazing pitcher...

 

[Nosferatu]

Grove didn't start in the majors late because he wasn't good enough though, he was dominating for the (minor league) Baltimore Orioles and they refused to sell him even though multiple MLB teams made large offers.

I didn't mean that at all but if you look at his rookie season it was less than stellar.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not gonna penalize a guy for walking away at 30... He had 4 no-no's and 3 Cy Young awards, I believe he is the youngest player ever elected to the HOF. I would take Koufax 100 out of 100 times vs Nolan Ryan or just about any pitcher in the history of the game.

So why is Tim Lincecum basically laughed at? He is basically Sandy Koufax-lite.

2 CY awards
2 No-Nos
3 elite-level seasons
3 rings

If he were to retire after this season, he should be a HOFer by your logic. Even the most die-hard Giants homers say that he needs to improve on his resume to even be in the discussion for HOF (like 5 years or so as an elite closer). And he just finished his age-30 season.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I didn't mean that at all but if you look at his rookie season it was less than stellar.

Wasn't he injured that year?

He led the league in ERA the very next season at 26, so I don't think it was a problem of ability. I think the average results in his first shortened season were more about learning and adjusting to the league than they were about his abilities. I'm inclined to think if he'd gotten that season out of the way at 21 he'd have been great at 25 too (except for the injury I suppose)

 

[Nosferatu]

So why is Tim Lincecum basically laughed at? He is basically Sandy Koufax-lite.

2 CY awards
2 No-Nos
3 elite-level seasons
3 rings

If he were to retire after this season, he should be a HOFer by your logic. Even the most die-hard Giants homers say that he needs to improve on his resume to even be in the discussion for HOF (like 5 years or so as an elite closer). And he just finished his age-30 season.

You are missing one big difference Koufax wasn't great then less than average after he was great. I would OF taken your post seriously had it been relevant.

 

[Chewbaccer]

You are missing one big difference Koufax wasn't great then less than average after he was great. I would OF taken your post seriously had it been relevant.

That is true. Koufax did retire when he was still at the top of his game.

 

[Nosferatu]

Wasn't he injured that year?

He led the league in ERA the very next season at 26, so I don't think it was a problem of ability. I think the average results in his first shortened season were more about learning and adjusting to the league than they were about his abilities. I'm inclined to think if he'd gotten that season out of the way at 21 he'd have been great at 25 too (except for the injury I suppose)

I in no way am saying Lefty Grove wasn't a great pitcher just saying had he been in the majors at 19 those first seasons might not have gone so well.