belachick as good as guy lombardo (60's packers coach) ?

[Ricky Roma]

True. Walsh had a losing record the 2 years before Montana was named the starter. I believe the first year Montana was named the starter from day one they won the SB.

Montana as a starter in 1980 was 2-5. The following year, when Montana started the whole season, and SF won the Super Bowl? They replace 3/4 of their secondary - adding Pro Bowl/HOF-type guys like Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright. They traded for HOF'er Fred Dean. They got Jack 'Hacksaw' Reynolds. They inserted Dwaine Board into the starting lineup.

SF isn't having a winning record, let alone make the playoffs/win the SB if the rest of those changes don't occur. The QB in that era simply doesn't make up anywhere near the difference that it does in today's game.

 

[richig07]

Montana as a starter in 1980 was 2-5. The following year, when Montana started the whole season, and SF won the Super Bowl? They replace 3/4 of their secondary - adding Pro Bowl/HOF-type guys like Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright. They traded for HOF'er Fred Dean. They got Jack 'Hacksaw' Reynolds. They inserted Dwaine Board into the starting lineup.

SF isn't having a winning record, let alone make the playoffs/win the SB if the rest of those changes don't occur. The QB in that era simply doesn't make up anywhere near the difference that it does in today's game.

That's a nice nugget of anecdotal evidence. However, we can also touch on the SB's Peyton was cost by his defense's over the years and then won as a hobbled, old and washed up man when he finally had a good one. We can talk about Philly winning with a backup last season. We can talk about Rodgers never reaching another SB outside of the season where he had an elite D - despite his absurd numbers posted in a variety of different seasons. Flacco went from perennial contender to an afterthought when his defensive personnel left from those teams earlier in the decade.

There's plenty of modern day examples here...

 

[richig07]

Yeah, that Paul Brown offense with Jim Brown sure was a West Coast thing. If Walsh copied anyone it was Don Coryell.

What?

The West Coast offense in no way resembles "Air Coryell". In fact, it's the polar opposite.

 

[Rex Racer]

What?

The West Coast offense in no way resembles "Air Coryell". In fact, it's the polar opposite.

Shhh, he's on a roll.

Did you know that the Bengals' WR/QB coach revolutionized the NFL passing game in the late 60's?

 

[richig07]

Shhh, he's on a roll.

Did you know that the Bengals' WR/QB coach revolutionized the NFL passing game in the late 60's?

In his defense there - I'm sure there's plenty who don't know the entire history behind the WCO.

Thinking Air Coryell and WCO have anything in common? That's just... well... (I'll be nice) silly

 

[realityball]

After about thinking what a bitch Shula is, gonna knock him out of my top 5 and put BB in there

... glad to see ya reel that one back in mr. black

 

[Rex Racer]

In his defense there - I'm sure there's plenty who don't know the entire history behind the WCO.

Thinking Air Coryell and WCO have anything in common? That's just... well... (I'll be nice) silly

You and I know that, our friend seems a bit lost though.

 

[LambeauLegs]

... you missed the part where I said he inherited a team of assets of value already in place

the fact that the previous GB staff sucked illustrates the ineptitude of the competition at the time ...

You must have missed where the Packers had drafted before he was hired and Lombardi got rid of many of those bad draft picks.

Lombardi made changes once he got there after the draft with people be wanted he wasnt given shit. Then with his changes he takes a team from 1-10-1 to a 7-5 record the first winning record since 1947 and was awarded the NFL coach of the year in his first year as packers coach. Lombardi sent 16 players from the team he inherited out the door. Lombardi didnt get his ass fired by the first team that hired him as a head coach like Belichick did. Belichick started as a head coach in 1991 he inherited a Cleveland team with a 3-13 record which is better than what Lombardi inherited in the 1-10-1 team. In Belichicks first year he was not coach of the year and his team ended with a 6-10 record. Belichick sucked until he inherited the team in New England. Belichick started coaching in 1991 and it took him 10 years to win his first championship. Lombardi already had 5 in less years than it took Belichick to get his first.





Changes made by Lombardi after he inherited the team after the draft >>>

On February 4, 1959, Vince Lombardi seized his opportunity and began building his football dynasty in Green Bay. He arrived after both phases of the draft (December 1 and January 21),[1][2][3] and started by trading away the Packers' best receiver of the decade, Billy Howton, to the Cleveland Browns. To bring some much-needed leadership to the defensive backfield, Lombardi obtained future Hall of Famer Emlen Tunnell from the New York Giants. He also acquired Fuzzy Thurston from the Baltimore Colts and defensive tackle Henry Jordan from Cleveland by the start of training camp.

In all, 16 veterans from the previous season were sent packing as Lombardi installed a new attitude in the Packers' locker room.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

Bill is a product of Brady... without Brady we wouldn't even be talking about Bill ... Bill get's credit though for drafting the man, and believed in him...

 

[Battlelyon]

Vince never had a losing season, won 5 titles in seven years

Belichick had 5 losing seasons

 

[Battlelyon]

They got Jack 'Hacksaw' Reynolds.

He was 34 when they got him, anyway why is he in a Niners uni in this picture? Awful

Jack Reynolds Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[TP76]

Yeah, that Paul Brown offense with Jim Brown sure was a West Coast thing. If Walsh copied anyone it was Don Coryell.

Had absolutely nothing to do with Jim Brown or the Browns... it had everything to do with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals who had a dearth of talent at RB and OL yet had to compete with the established NFL teams of the time. Back then, they did not support expansion teams like they have with the recent additions. The Bengals were playing with the deck stacked against them. Paul Brown had to develop a short timing/passing attack to substitute for the running game he lacked.

 

[broncosmitty]

GOAT

 

[realityball]

You must have missed where the Packers had drafted before he was hired and Lombardi got rid of many of those bad draft picks.

Lombardi made changes once he got there after the draft with people be wanted he wasnt given shit. Then with his changes he takes a team from 1-10-1 to a 7-5 record the first winning record since 1947 and was awarded the NFL coach of the year in his first year as packers coach. Lombardi sent 16 players from the team he inherited out the door. Lombardi didnt get his ass fired by the first team that hired him as a head coach like Belichick did. Belichick started as a head coach in 1991 he inherited a Cleveland team with a 3-13 record which is better than what Lombardi inherited in the 1-10-1 team. In Belichicks first year he was not coach of the year and his team ended with a 6-10 record. Belichick sucked until he inherited the team in New England. Belichick started coaching in 1991 and it took him 10 years to win his first championship. Lombardi already had 5 in less years than it took Belichick to get his first.





Changes made by Lombardi after he inherited the team after the draft >>>

On February 4, 1959, Vince Lombardi seized his opportunity and began building his football dynasty in Green Bay. He arrived after both phases of the draft (December 1 and January 21),[1][2][3] and started by trading away the Packers' best receiver of the decade, Billy Howton, to the Cleveland Browns. To bring some much-needed leadership to the defensive backfield, Lombardi obtained future Hall of Famer Emlen Tunnell from the New York Giants. He also acquired Fuzzy Thurston from the Baltimore Colts and defensive tackle Henry Jordan from Cleveland by the start of training camp.

In all, 16 veterans from the previous season were sent packing as Lombardi installed a new attitude in the Packers' locker room.

Packers 1958

Tom Bettis
Nate Borden
Hank Bullough
Al Carmichael
Dan Currie
Bobby Dillon
Howie Ferguson
Len Ford
Bill Forester
Joe Francis
Forrest Gregg
Hank Gremminger
Dave Hanner
Paul Hornung
Billy Howton
Joe Johnson
J.D. Kimmel
Billy Kinard
Gary Knafelc
Jerry Kramer
Carlton Massey
Norm Masters
Marv Matuszak
Max McGee
Don McIlhenny
Steve Meilinger
Ray Nitschke
Babe Parilli
Jim Ringo
Al Romine
Jim Salsbury
Jim Shanley
Ollie Spencer
Bart Starr
John Symank
Jim Taylor
Jim Temp
Jesse Whittenton

 

[Battlelyon]

The Packers decade previous to Lombardi, not one winning season. 1-10-1 was the record the prior season

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Maybe you should check things out before you post:

Lombardi started coaching GB in 1959. The Packers sucked in the 1950's Cleveland Browns bad:

The 1958 Packers > The 1958 Green Bay Packers season was their 40th season overall and their 38th season in the National Football League. The club posted a 1–10–1 record under first-year head coach Ray McLean for a last-place finish in the league in 1958 and the worst record ever posted by a Packers team.

The team sucked so they hired a new coach and in cam Lombardi. If he inherited a team with a dozen All-Americans they would not have been 1-10-1. And there record in the 1950's would have been better than 32-74 over those 10 years.

Lombardi started building his team with his great management skills as he was hired after the draft before the first year he started. His quarterback Bart Starr was drafted in the 17th round in 1956 three years before Lombardi got there and he was not the starter. Lombardi developed a 17th round QB into one of the best ever. Bill had some guy way up in the 6th round of the draft so much better quality and it still took him 15 to 20 years to win 5 championships.

1959 Green Bay Packers season - Wikipedia

The 1959 Green Bay Packers season was their 41st season overall and their 39th season in the National Football League and 41st overall. The club posted a 7–5 record in the 1959 season under first-year coach Vince Lombardi to earn a third-place finish in the Western Conference.

It was the Packers' first winning season in a dozen years, the last was a 6–5–1 mark in 1947. Green Bay had just one victory during the previous season in 1958 with the worst record in the 12-team league, and were 3–9 in 1957, tied for worst.

On February 4, 1959, Vince Lombardi seized his opportunity and began building his football dynasty in Green Bay. He arrived after both phases of the draft (December 1 and January 21),[1][2][3] and started by trading away the Packers' best receiver of the decade, Billy Howton, to the Cleveland Browns. To bring some much-needed leadership to the defensive backfield, Lombardi obtained future Hall of Famer Emlen Tunnell from the New York Giants. He also acquired Fuzzy Thurston from the Baltimore Colts and defensive tackle Henry Jordan from Cleveland by the start of training camp. In all, 16 veterans from the previous season were sent packing as Lombardi installed a new attitude in the Packers' locker room.

Training camp[edit]
Lombardi borrowed from the Giants model — the players had to feel like champions. The team traveled first class under the philosophy that "you can't be a winner unless you feel like one." The change in culture was pronounced. Lombardi had to find a quarterback, and he was resistant to making Bart Starr the quarterback. Starr was in his fourth year in the league and hadn't won a game in which he'd played four quarters. "Did Bart tell you how bad he was?" a player was to later quip to biographer John Eisenberg. Former Razorback Lamar McHan beat out Starr, while veteran Babe Parilli was cut in mid-September, along with rookie running back Alex Hawkins, the thirteenth overall selection in the 1959 NFL Draft.[4]

Master plan[edit]
Through his now legendary coaching style, Lombardi whipped the underachieving Packers into instant winners. He set his plan immediately into action at his very first team meeting. "I have never been on a losing team, gentlemen, and I do not intend to start now!"

Dramatic improvement[edit]
The results of Lombardi's approach were dramatic. In the season opener against the Chicago Bears, the Packers held on to win 9–6 and celebrated the victory by carrying their new head coach off the field. In his first year on the sidelines, the Packers posted their first winning record since 1947. The team's quick turnaround netted Lombardi unanimous honors as NFL coach of the year

OK let's cut out the hyperbole and keep this honest and upfront.

Yes Starr was drafted in the 17th round pick #200. Brady was picked in the 6th #199. May have had a little thing to do with those 6 teams vs. 32? Maybe it was tongue and cheek on your part? Green font would've helped.

Which leads to the next gem. Starr has TWO SB titles and SB MVPs to go along with three league championships. This would be like Denver Nuggets, Indiana Pacers, New York Nets or San Antonio Spurs claiming an ABA title is equivalent to an NBA title.

No one can take anything away from the great motivator Lombardi was. He certainly turned that franchise around. Just like BB who turned NE around.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Billy Belly was 5-13 (2000 and the first 2 games of 2001) with Bledsoe at QB. Insert Brady. 11-3 the rest of the year.....

That was Belichick's greatest 'tactical desicion' in the history of his coaching....turning around and telling Brady to go into the game. The reality is, they both need each other for their teams' successes.

You realize Bledsoe had torn his labrum/a hemothorax that had his lungs filling with blodd. No "tactical decision" required. Heck even you with your limited football IQ, could've made that decision.
Now if you were talking about who was going to start upon Bledsoe's return that's a different story. But that's not what you said and likely not what you were alluding to.

 

[LambeauLegs]

Packers 1958

Tom Bettis
Nate Borden
Hank Bullough
Al Carmichael
Dan Currie
Bobby Dillon
Howie Ferguson
Len Ford
Bill Forester
Joe Francis
Forrest Gregg
Hank Gremminger
Dave Hanner
Paul Hornung
Billy Howton
Joe Johnson
J.D. Kimmel
Billy Kinard
Gary Knafelc
Jerry Kramer
Carlton Massey
Norm Masters
Marv Matuszak
Max McGee
Don McIlhenny
Steve Meilinger
Ray Nitschke
Babe Parilli
Jim Ringo
Al Romine
Jim Salsbury
Jim Shanley
Ollie Spencer
Bart Starr
John Symank
Jim Taylor
Jim Temp
Jesse Whittenton

This group of 32 scrubs group coached by Ray Mclean had the worst record in Packer history at 1-10-1. Were they so bad because they were scrubs or were they bad because Ray Mclean sucked as a coach? If these are the same players Lombardi had why didn't they suck in 1959 as well? Why was there such a big improvement?

The 16 players bold above were not on the 1959 team because of Lombardis coaching decisions

He then added these players:

Ken Beck
Timmy Brown
Bill Butler
Lew Carpenter
John Ditrich
Boyd Dowler
Bobby Freeman
Henry Jordon
Ron Kramer
Bill Quinlan
Bob Skoronski
Fuzzy Thurston
Emlen Tunnel
A.D. Williams

This means that when Lombardi started to coach with 32 on the roster he canned half the team to start out letting 16 players go. Then on his own he made decisions to add 14 people to his first roster. So Lombardis management style was able to bring in 14 more after the draft was over. So there was roughly 50% turnover rate in Lombardis for year.

 

[LambeauLegs]

OK let's cut out the hyperbole and keep this honest and upfront.

Yes Starr was drafted in the 17th round pick #200. Brady was picked in the 6th #199. May have had a little thing to do with those 6 teams vs. 32? Maybe it was tongue and cheek on your part? Green font would've helped.

Which leads to the next gem. Starr has TWO SB titles and SB MVPs to go along with three league championships. This would be like Denver Nuggets, Indiana Pacers, New York Nets or San Antonio Spurs claiming an ABA title is equivalent to an NBA title.

No one can take anything away from the great motivator Lombardi was. He certainly turned that franchise around. Just like BB who turned NE around.

We are comparing full careers Bill did not start with NE he got fired in Cleveland. If he was so great why did he get fired after 4 or 5 years not being able to turn Cleveland around. He did not sniff a championship until 10 years into his career. Lombardi has 5 in 7 years

Oh and there were 12 teams in the NFL in 1959 twice as many as the 6 you and others were quoting. By 1961 the league had increased to 14 teams which is the year Lombardi won his first championship. He started coaching the Pack in 1959 and won his first of 5 championships 2 years later in 1961 when there were 14 teams.


Eastern Conference[edit]

• Chicago Cardinals: Pop Ivy
• Cleveland Browns: Paul Brown
• New York Giants: Jim Lee Howell
• Philadelphia Eagles: Buck Shaw
• Pittsburgh Steelers: Buddy Parker
• Washington Redskins: Mike Nixon

Western Conference[edit]

• Baltimore Colts: Weeb Ewbank
• Chicago Bears: George Halas
• Detroit Lions: George Wilson
• Green Bay Packers: Vince Lombardi
• Los Angeles Rams: Sid Gillman
• San Francisco 49ers: Red Hickey

 

[Ricky Roma]

That's a nice nugget of anecdotal evidence. However, we can also touch on the SB's Peyton was cost by his defense's over the years and then won as a hobbled, old and washed up man when he finally had a good one. We can talk about Philly winning with a backup last season. We can talk about Rodgers never reaching another SB outside of the season where he had an elite D - despite his absurd numbers posted in a variety of different seasons. Flacco went from perennial contender to an afterthought when his defensive personnel left from those teams earlier in the decade.

There's plenty of modern day examples here...

Did I say it was the 'ONLY' thing? No...I did not. Peyton Manning is another great example. Those Colts were 12-4 to 14-2 type team with him, and collapsed to a 2 win team the one year without....basically with the same remaining team around him. GB without Rodgers is another 4 win team. Philly doesn't win anything without Foles going on a nonsensical playoff run.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.