Armstead Update: "A Different Situation"

[JDM]

That's for statistics purposes. That's not the end-all, be all, of who should really be blamed. Wes has at least as much fault as Brady does.

 

[MrMoJoRisin63]

That's for statistics purposes. That's not the end-all, be all, of who should really be blamed. Wes has at least as much fault as Brady does.

And I said that early on.

 

[TKO]

Evolution doesn't claim that it will. As members of one species adapt in different ways, they split into multiple species. That has nothing to do with your absurd hyperbole of a polar bear becoming a tree.

Sorry, as species adapt they become a variation within the same species due to gene pooling.

 

[JDM]

Sorry, as species adapt they become a variation within the same species due to gene pooling.

Not if they live in different habitats and don't interact as a result of the adaptations that differ.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

So....How's the secondary coming along...?

 

[TKO]

Not if they live in different habitats and don't interact as a result of the adaptations that differ.

Let me pose a couple of lengthy questions to you...if you read the post about the Earth being a magma fueled dynamo and the and Sun being a fusion fueled one and if God created them, would you agree they're an example of a Supreme intelligence and power beyond our ability to fathom? Compare those to a turbine manufactured by man to get an idea of the intelligence and power that God must have, if he really did it. So..If that is true, wouldn't it be possible for a mechanism or process within the species to exist, that we may never understand, that allows for varietal adaptive changes that are being confused with evolutionary changes by scientists who have no desire to ascribe any of it to a God?

Of course it's possible because mainstream science is a lot like mainstream religion. If a scientist wants to advance and be taken seriously, he must adhere to the dogma of the scientific community or be ostracized, ridiculed or even fired by its hierarchy for suggesting evolution isn't a satisfying answer to the actual facts in evidence.

I'll give you an example how the fossil evidence could be misinterpreted by scientists if the Bible is true. I'm not saying they should consider the Bible, only that they don't consider it...and it could be the reason for a huge mistake. On to the example... fossils taken from sedimentary rock are considered to be as old as the rock they're taken from, and when they date the rock to millions of years, through half-life decay for one method, they assume the age of the fossils are millions of years old too. Now suppose the Flood in Noah's day actually happened and those now fossilized plants/animals were destroyed by it and subsequently laid down in the sediment much later than the rock was formed. Based on that, wouldn't the dating of the fossils be erroneous? Just because they're found side by side doesn't mean they existed from the same time.

 

[JDM]

I still don't get the church claiming evolution contradicts their religion in any way. I do not believe in god because I see no evidence he exists beyond people's minds (and that in itself is a powerful influence, whether he exists or not). It is perfectly reasonable that evolution is how god made life exist. As you have stated, if "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day", evolution doesn't contradict the bible in any way.

But evolution is real (as much as any science is "real". It is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence we have available and no other theory comes close to the same accuracy). The church attacking evolution is a stupid policy, and the people who use the bible to do this are the same ones who abuse it to hate people. Oh, the bible has one verse mentioning that gay sex is bad in the same book saying you can't eat pork or a variety of other food that you conveniently ignore? Lets pretend it doesn't say love your neighbor and that only god can judge and lynch them all right now.

As for your alternatives, yes, some of them are possible, but given the knowledge we have they have to be considered significantly less likely.

 

[TKO]

I still don't get the church claiming evolution contradicts their religion in any way. I do not believe in god because I see no evidence he exists beyond people's minds (and that in itself is a powerful influence, whether he exists or not). It is perfectly reasonable that evolution is how god made life exist. As you have stated, if "a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day", evolution doesn't contradict the bible in any way.

But evolution is real (as much as any science is "real". It is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence we have available and no other theory comes close to the same accuracy). The church attacking evolution is a stupid policy, and the people who use the bible to do this are the same ones who abuse it to hate people. Oh, the bible has one verse mentioning that gay sex is bad in the same book saying you can't eat pork or a variety of other food that you conveniently ignore? Lets pretend it doesn't say love your neighbor and that only god can judge and lynch them all right now.


As for your alternatives, yes, some of them are possible, but given the knowledge we have they have to be considered significantly less likely.

Well, I never said anything about any church but that aside...creation is described in the Bible this way in Genesis:

“Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.” And it came to be so. 12 And the earth began to put forth grass, vegetation bearing seed according to its kind and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in it according to its kind.

In the sample above for vegetation you can clearly see it was created in complete form with seed in it. There was no blip in some primordial soup leading to it.

 

[JDM]

Ok, put evolution super accelerated to seven days corresponding to the days of creation. Remember that time in our sense is nothing to god, right? The order may not match the information we have precisely; I honestly don't know those specifics. If evolution was god's method for creation, how would you describe it to early man with no science to refer to? You would use days to break it up. The bible is also full of allegorical content (Jesus parables, visions, comments about God), so why would you complicate the creation story by giving specifics it would take a long history for us to begin to comprehend?

If god did create us and wants the best for us, would he not want us to learn to judge things for ourselves? To take the evidence of what he has gifted us with and use it, along with the gifts of judgement he so generously provided, learn from everything he has to teach us? If you ignore the creation stories (which do have some apparent contractions), and look solely at what the evidence shows you, I think it paints a clear picture. Would god not want you to look past the stories and know the real truth he created?

 

[TKO]

Ok, put evolution super accelerated to seven days corresponding to the days of creation. Remember that time in our sense is nothing to god, right? The order may not match the information we have precisely; I honestly don't know those specifics. If evolution was god's method for creation, how would you describe it to early man with no science to refer to? You would use days to break it up. The bible is also full of allegorical content (Jesus parables, visions, comments about God), so why would you complicate the creation story by giving specifics it would take a long history for us to begin to comprehend?

If god did create us and wants the best for us, would he not want us to learn to judge things for ourselves? To take the evidence of what he has gifted us with and use it, along with the gifts of judgement he so generously provided, learn from everything he has to teach us? If you ignore the creation stories (which do have some apparent contractions), and look solely at what the evidence shows you, I think it paints a clear picture. Would god not want you to look past the stories and know the real truth he created?

A couple of things...in the Genesis account, God rested after the sixth creative period or day. There was a Bible research/scholar that did the math for the generations listed in the Bible to show that man was created six thousand years ago. So if true.,..if it's been six thousand years since Adam and Eve and God is still symbolically resting from those creative works. That being the case, then one day/creative period would seem to be at least six thousand years long. That would put the six creative periods at a total of 36000 years at a minimum...not six literal 24 hour days.

As far as science and free will go; which is what I think you're suggesting as the reason why God may have left it up to us to figure out... Sure we have curiosity and the intellect to study but not all conclusions and the resulting actions based on those conclusions are advantageous. For example, man has unlocked the atom and now has the capacity to destroy the whole world. They haven't done it yet but there are few weapons that have been created that haven't been used and the history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki demonstrate that. It's well known that the theory of evolution and/or the concept that "there is no God" is behind some of the cruelest and murderous governments to ever rule on Earth. Evolution has aided and abetted them in a way because they have no one to fear if their faith is in science and not God. One example is Eugenics which was founded by Darwin's cousin and used by the Nazis as their vehicle to create the "master race". It also murdered millions of "undesirables" in the process. James Galton read his cousin's Theory of Evolution and wanted to apply it to humans.

 

[JDM]

Again, time has no meaning to God. The days don't have to be equal by any means.

Science has not come near the wrongful deaths that religious wars have, so I'm not sure that that is a realistic argument. Nuclear technology has brought some harmful discoveries along with some very valuable ones, in terms of energy. Nuclear power may very well be what saves millions of lives when we outgrow earth and have no choice but for some of the population to move. Our understanding of evolution has not only helped provide us with a better ability to improve our environment around us, but it has also helped advance some of the technologies behind artificial intelligence.

Science has it's costs, and limiting them is a good goal, but trying to do that by ignoring the truth that is in front of your face isn't the answer.

 

[TKO]

"Oh, the bible has one verse mentioning that gay sex is bad in the same book saying you can't eat pork or a variety of other food that you conveniently ignore? Lets pretend it doesn't say love your neighbor and that only god can judge and lynch them all right now."

Sorry, I meant to touch on these points too. Actually the Bible contains more than one admonition against homosexuality and one prime example of that is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Without making any judgments, the Bible condemns both homosexual and heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Is that for the good of humans? What kind of life would my wife have if I jumped into bed with every woman I could seduce? What about venereal disease? What about any children produced? They could easily have problems growing up in a one parent household which is a well documented problem in society today. The Bible says do not sin and God tells us what sin is from his point of view and it is for our benefit if we obey it.Granted, homosexuals may feel a certain way, just as I might want to chase every skirt I see, but in each case God expects us to exercise self control and not sin. The Bible clearly shows that sex is only meant to be within the marriage of a man and woman and any sex outside of marriage whether between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman or a man and a man is... sin. It says what it says.

The warning is pretty clear to me from 1st Corinthians:

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a]

 

[JDM]

The only verse that actually mentions homosexuality specifically in any way is Leviticus. The rest is conjecture.

Say it is a sin, though. Ignore the entirety of the New Testament being about the fact that the old laws were not near as important as they were being treated, and were not an excuse to treat people poorly. Jesus made a habit of hanging around sinners and treating them like they were still people, and attacked the church for not doing the same, time and time again.

Do you see why people using religion to talk about how "god hates fags" is completely contradictory to the message, even assuming that the areas that it is mentioned are not massively blown out of proportion?

 

[TKO]

Again, time has no meaning to God. The days don't have to be equal by any means.

Science has not come near the wrongful deaths that religious wars have, so I'm not sure that that is a realistic argument. Nuclear technology has brought some harmful discoveries along with some very valuable ones, in terms of energy. Nuclear power may very well be what saves millions of lives when we outgrow earth and have no choice but for some of the population to move. Our understanding of evolution has not only helped provide us with a better ability to improve our environment around us, but it has also helped advance some of the technologies behind artificial intelligence.

Science has it's costs, and limiting them is a good goal, but trying to do that by ignoring the truth that is in front of your face isn't the answer.

True enough about religious persecution. Those organizations that claim to be Christian and yet have murdered millions through the Inquisition etc. have blood on their hands and will be held accountable. They certainly are not Christian.

 

[JDM]

Also, it says adultery is bad but in the time frame people regularly had multiple wives. It does not define adultery, or what does and does not qualify, so that is not a particularly strong argument that the bible is as strongly against homosexuality as people treat it.

 

[JDM]

True enough about religious persecution. Those organizations that claim to be Christian and yet have murdered millions through the Inquisition etc. have blood on their hands and will be held accountable. They certainly are not Christian.

I don't disagree. But they used religion as a tool in the same way that evolution was used as a tool.

Knowledge (and lets call religion's teachings wisdom) are inherently good things. Even faulty reasoning can be a valuable learning experience if you look at it through the right eyes. But just as they have potential for good, in the wrong hands they can do damage.

 

[TKO]

The only verse that actually mentions homosexuality specifically in any way is Leviticus. The rest is conjecture.

Say it is a sin, though. Ignore the entirety of the New Testament being about the fact that the old laws were not near as important as they were being treated, and were not an excuse to treat people poorly. Jesus made a habit of hanging around sinners and treating them like they were still people, and attacked the church for not doing the same, time and time again.

Do you see why people using religion to talk about how "god hates fags" is completely contradictory to the message, even assuming that the areas that it is mentioned are not massively blown out of proportion?

??? Men who have sex with men isn't heterosexuality. Jesus did try to help sinners to STOP SINNING and many who became Christians changed their former course of conduct. Here's the verse I quoted earlier with the two verses after it..notice in bold type how they used to be sinners but stopped.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

New International Version (NIV)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[JDM]

Of course men having sex with men isn't heterosexuality. I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[TKO]

Of course men having sex with men isn't heterosexuality. I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

That verse is from 1st Corinthians and you said the only scripture condemning homosexuality was in Leviticus...It's not.

 

[JDM]

You are correct. That is Paul, with what could very well be his own biases, writing that. I am not convinced that a brief mention in that context validates the way the church treats homosexuals, though.