A letter to Redskins fans Monday night

[Sharkinva]

Fair points all, however, as you've mentioned on another topic, "You can be one of the smartest people on the planet and not be a Leader. In fact some of the best Leaders of men I have ever known, I mean true leaders, never graduated HS. And yet these men were true leaders. You cant teach the kind of leadership Im talking about. It cant be bestowed upon you because of your draft position, rank, or political title."........hits the mark exactly, taking advantage of a once in multiple generations offering does not indicate what true feelings there are, just the smarts not to say so.

Sty... I totally agree with you. And if the name offends you or yours, really dude I am sorry as one Washington fan to another. But the name debate is was and always has been about money to a degree. the fact that those who have been leading this charge have not come out in full force screaming at how Snyder is trying to bribe his way into keeping the name just proves that. I actually do think the name should be changed. I just dont think it should be because some one tried to force the team to do it, because all I see is that hurting the team in the long run.

 

[Stymietee]

Sty... I totally agree with you. And if the name offends you or yours, really dude I am sorry as one Washington fan to another. But the name debate is was and always has been about money to a degree. the fact that those who have been leading this charge have not come out in full force screaming at how Snyder is trying to bribe his way into keeping the name just proves that. I actually do think the name should be changed. I just dont think it should be because some one tried to force the team to do it, because all I see is that hurting the team in the long run.

They did respond, just not in the manner that you'd prefer.......
Oneida Nation not impressed with new Daniel Snyder foundation
CBSSports.com.

SN: He's setting up a foundation, not a lot of money involved in doing that.

BTW: You're right about the money, the question is how he plans to make more of it.

 

[Sharkinva]

They did respond, just not in the manner that you'd prefer.......
Oneida Nation not impressed with new Daniel Snyder foundation
CBSSports.com.

SN: He's setting up a foundation, not a lot of money involved in doing that.

BTW: You're right about the money, the question is how he plans to make more of it.

I guess thats the problem with thinking like a Marine. If Im totally outraged and really want to stand my ground, i dont think my response to an obvious bribe attempt would be to say... well Im not really impressed. guess I was expecting a little outrage. A banding together of the tribal leaders saying we dont want your money. we just want you to change the name. What i got from the Onedia response was.. .well we are not impressed with your attempt, but we are not going to turn the money down either.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Here is some info from the web on Ray Halbritter who is leading the current protest:

Halbritter has been labeled a dictator by some inside the tribe who accuse him of being a heavy-handed leader who "answers to no one," according to Doug George-Kanentiio, the co-founder of the Native American Journalists Association. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Raymond_Halbritter#cite_note-6 He has been accused of garnering vast personal wealth by exploiting his role of CEO of Oneida Nation Enterprises, but he denies that he has become a billionaire.

He is also an accomplished golfer. I am guessing that a lot of these conversations start on the golf course & in the bar far away from the impoverished areas for Native Americans. Sounds like he is doing some good things for his people but also profiting quite a bit from them. Hmmm - kind of sounds like the same things he is accusing Snyder of in this whole mess. Hypocrite.

 

[Sharkinva]

Here is some info from the web on Ray Halbritter who is leading the current protest:

Halbritter has been labeled a dictator by some inside the tribe who accuse him of being a heavy-handed leader who "answers to no one," according to Doug George-Kanentiio, the co-founder of the Native American Journalists Association. He has been accused of garnering vast personal wealth by exploiting his role of CEO of Oneida Nation Enterprises, but he denies that he has become a billionaire.

He is also an accomplished golfer. I am guessing that a lot of these conversations start on the golf course & in the bar far away from the impoverished areas for Native Americans. Sounds like he is doing some good things for his people but also profiting quite a bit from them. Hmmm - kind of sounds like the same things he is accusing Snyder of in this whole mess. Hypocrite.

My question in situations like this always comes down to this. How long must the sons pay for the sins of the fathers in cases like this. I realize what happened to the American Indian a few hundred years ago was tragic, and had deep social impact on them as a people. Put at some point, when does it become just an excuse. And i feel the same way about the plight of African Americans and other so called minorities who now benefit from programs or ideas put into place to some how try and repair damage done years ago. When is enough enough? When does it become the responsibility of that kid born on a reservation to take it upon himself to better his peoples situation and not wait for some one else to do it??

 

[skinsdad62]

Roger Goodell Stands by Washington Redskins Keeping Controversial Name | Bleacher Report

the latest and the greatest on this subject .

90% of fans want the name to stay

the general population favors it

indian leaders feel the issue of poverty ETC are more important then the name change

 

[Stymietee]

Roger Goodell Stands by Washington Redskins Keeping Controversial Name | Bleacher Report

the latest and the greatest on this subject .

90% of fans want the name to stay

the general population favors it

indian leaders feel the issue of poverty ETC are more important then the name change

First, it is an embarrassment of hubris to suggest that 90% of fans want the epithet to stay when that epithet does not relate to them! What would you say if the general population favored the "N" word?

On your last point, it is a false dichotomy to say Native Americans have to decide between either working on problems like poverty or being concerned about a dictionary defined racial slur. By juxtaposing that, you seem to be trying to say that you can't do both.

 

[Stymietee]

My question in situations like this always comes down to this. How long must the sons pay for the sins of the fathers in cases like this. I realize what happened to the American Indian a few hundred years ago was tragic, and had deep social impact on them as a people. Put at some point, when does it become just an excuse. And i feel the same way about the plight of African Americans and other so called minorities who now benefit from programs or ideas put into place to some how try and repair damage done years ago. When is enough enough? When does it become the responsibility of that kid born on a reservation to take it upon himself to better his peoples situation and not wait for some one else to do it??

Here's my answer to your remarks. In any and every court in the land justice is designed to make the aggrieved whole, not to give an advantage or to support a disadvantage but to make the aggrieved whole. When historical injustices have been addressed and the aggrieved made whole I believe the sound you'll hear........ is silence!!!

 

[Sharkinva]

Here's my answer to your remarks. In any and every court in the land justice is designed to make the aggrieved whole, not to give an advantage or to support a disadvantage but to make the aggrieved whole. When historical injustices have been addressed and the aggrieved made whole I believe the sound you'll hear........ is silence!!!

The problem with that concept is this... how do you make some one whole for something they didnt personally experience. Yes i feel bad about slavery, and it pisses me off frankly. But I dont think Skinsdad owes me any favors as a white man for what his great great great great great great grand father might or might not have done to my nine times removed Grand mother.

 

[Stymietee]

The problem with that concept is this... how do you make some one whole for something they didnt personally experience. Yes i feel bad about slavery, and it pisses me off frankly. But I dont think Skinsdad owes me any favors as a white man for what his great great great great great great grand father might or might not have done to my nine times removed Grand mother.

At first glance historical injustices would seem to have been better dealt with in a time closer to those injustices. The vestiges of slavery (since you used that) continue today. At the end of slavery there was a very real system in place called Jim Crow. This system continued into the early to mid 1970's. A classic example of that would be what was learned from the protests of the early 50s and 60s. During this time jails were designed to hold less than 100 people. The explosion of the prison industrial complex is a direct descendent of those protests. The unevenness in sentencing for like crimes tells us that James Crow Esquire has successfully succeeded his father.

You have overlooked this period in time, and although his great great great great great great grandfather lived in the time where slavery was the norm, we cannot overlook the system that followed slavery and was upheld by his grandfather and quite possibly his dad.

SN: I am not sure about skinsdad, but I was most assuredly alive and well when signs on public restrooms read white only!!

 

[gkekoa]

I'll never call them Native Americans...they are either Americans or American Indians.


I don't refer to them as Redskins and I don't know a single person that does...as a matter of fact...I don't know a single person who gives a shit about them at all. They are individuals...they have problems and those problems are no greater or worse than the problems each of us face.

 

[Sharkinva]

At first glance historical injustices would seem to have been better dealt with in a time closer to those injustices. The vestiges of slavery (since you used that) continue today. At the end of slavery there was a very real system in place called Jim Crow. This system continued into the early to mid 1970's. A classic example of that would be what was learned from the protests of the early 50s and 60s. During this time jails were designed to hold less than 100 people. The explosion of the prison industrial complex is a direct descendent of those protests. The unevenness in sentencing for like crimes tells us that James Crow Esquire has successfully succeeded his father.

You have overlooked this period in time, and although his great great great great great great grandfather lived in the time where slavery was the norm, we cannot overlook the system that followed slavery and was upheld by his grandfather and quite possibly his dad.

SN: I am not sure about skinsdad, but I was most assuredly alive and well when signs on public restrooms read white only!!

Again Sty. I get where you are coming from... to a point. But seriously how are we supposed to move forward as a society if we constantly hang onto problems from the past. things do change. I have not over looked any time period. I choose to accept the fact that we dont live in that time period any more. And my own kids should be no more subject to recieving special treatment for what happened during Jim Crow, than I should be held responsible to pay for the sins of my fore fathers. If Jim Crow really was alive and well today, you really think we would have Black billionaires, black doctors, lawyers and even a president?? (OK I admit Barak is only 1/4 black, but still he passes the eye test)

 

[Stymietee]

I'll never call them Native Americans...they are either Americans or American Indians.


I don't refer to them as Redskins and I don't know a single person that does...as a matter of fact...I don't know a single person who gives a shit about them at all. They are individuals...they have problems and those problems are no greater or worse than the problems each of us face.

Are you baiting?

 

[Stymietee]

Again Sty. I get where you are coming from... to a point. But seriously how are we supposed to move forward as a society if we constantly hang onto problems from the past. things do change. I have not over looked any time period. I choose to accept the fact that we dont live in that time period any more. And my own kids should be no more subject to recieving special treatment for what happened during Jim Crow, than I should be held responsible to pay for the sins of my fore fathers. If Jim Crow really was alive and well today, you really think we would have Black billionaires, black doctors, lawyers and even a president?? (OK I admit Barak is only 1/4 black, but still he passes the eye test)

This is how we move on as a society..........We have an honest and open conversation on the subject, determine what if any actions can be done to erase the vestiges that still remain assure that the resolutions are in place then move on.

No we don't live in that time frame anymore, and Jim Crow isn't the norm, as I've stated previously his heir James Crow Esquire is. Let me ask you a question. I'll choose communications/ entertainment. A giant swath to be sure, but in almost every aspect within those venues where there is buffoonery, destructive behaviors, and any other negative instruction being portrayed there is a more influencing counterbalance for all segments of society save one. Want to guess which one that is?? These portrayals will influence (as is current) the way your children are viewed. Ever wonder why it is so easy to attach the term thug to one man who is charged with a DUI and four counts of possession of a controlled substance and not once to the owner of the Indy Colts?

BTW: you are paying for the sins of your fore-fathers, as are we all. Any effort to overcome the disadvantages, public portrayals and images that continue to perpetuate our country is an effort to correct the failings of our forefathers. Here's something to think about.

Today there are 35,000 Black Millionaires in the U.S. Let me be clear, that’s only one tenth of one percent of the populations. (only two Billionaires). each year $1.2 trillion runs through our hands without a thing to show for it. No other ethnic group tolerates such nonsense. The number one key is knowledge. Why? because without it we are doomed to continue recklessness and tolerance of life without the balance that was previously mentioned. We've always had black doctors, lawyers, and the 8th president of the Continental Congress in our history, only a handful are noted for their work.

Sorry for the lengthy statement.

 

[Stymietee]

This is a note to Skinsdad...........Hey Dad in our conversation (Shark and I) we used you as an example in one aspect of the same. No intentional, unintentional, covert, or any sort of malice was intended. On behalf of both of us, I ask that you see this use of you and yours in the manner that it was intended. Thanks!!!

 

[gkekoa]

Are you baiting?

In what way was i baiting? I don't care what color you are...only your actions.

 

[gkekoa]

I'm all for equal treatment within our court system.

1) If you are convicted of murder...you die.
2) If you are convicted of r*pe...you die.
3) If you are convicted of distribution...you die.

equal treatment is fine with me.

I wasn't born until the mid 70s. Do you really think it's fair to those born after "the perceived crimes of the time" to give a "leg up" to those who were born after that same time but never felt the effects?

Pick youself up...put an emphasis on the family...put an emphasis on education...stop looking for excuses.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

First, it is an embarrassment of hubris to suggest that 90% of fans want the epithet to stay when that epithet does not relate to them! What would you say if the general population favored the "N" word?

On your last point, it is a false dichotomy to say Native Americans have to decide between either working on problems like poverty or being concerned about a dictionary defined racial slur. By juxtaposing that, you seem to be trying to say that you can't do both.

I believe that both problems can be addressed. However - first show me where more than a handful of Native Americans (who generally have an agenda and profit somehow from their stance) take issue with the term Redskins. Poll after poll after poll shows the exact opposite. You cannot say the same for other derogatory terms. These arguments generally come from loudmouth media types trying to make a name for themselves.

I don't care what it states in a dictionary. Dictionaries and the like during this era are extremely subjective and often inaccurate. However - again - if they change the name - so be it. I just take issue with bogus groups like the Oneida nation (their leaders not the entire tribe) making this sound as if this is the worst problem in the world. I have already shown you how their supposed leader is lining his pockets while pretending to be this noble leader.

Oh well - agree to disagree - and not sure how you can compare simply using the name Redskins with other past injustices. The bigger issue for Native Americans is addressing their current issues (as is being done by Snyder and others regardless of motivation). The last time I checked changing a name won't feed anyone or provide clean water to a community.

 

[Sharkinva]

I believe that both problems can be addressed. However - first show me where more than a handful of Native Americans (who generally have an agenda and profit somehow from their stance) take issue with the term Redskins. Poll after poll after poll shows the exact opposite. You cannot say the same for other derogatory terms. These arguments generally come from loudmouth media types trying to make a name for themselves.

I don't care what it states in a dictionary. Dictionaries and the like during this era are extremely subjective and often inaccurate. However - again - if they change the name - so be it. I just take issue with bogus groups like the Oneida nation (their leaders not the entire tribe) making this sound as if this is the worst problem in the world. I have already shown you how their supposed leader is lining his pockets while pretending to be this noble leader.

Oh well - agree to disagree - and not sure how you can compare simply using the name Redskins with other past injustices. The bigger issue for Native Americans is addressing their current issues (as is being done by Snyder and others regardless of motivation). The last time I checked changing a name won't feed anyone or provide clean water to a community.

What it will provide if the team is forced to change the name however is legal grounds for some sort of civil action based on how the team name has caused untold mental anguish to the poor suffering Native American masses. I mean if not for the team name, Chief Runs with Cramps might not have felt so totally down trodden that he couldnt pass the college classes he never registered for in the first place.

OK yes I know my sarcasm gene is acting up this morning. But you get my general point. This is all about the money and end game is some one is likely going to sue Snyder and the team five minutes after the name is changed.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

What it will provide if the team is forced to change the name however is legal grounds for some sort of civil action based on how the team name has caused untold mental anguish to the poor suffering Native American masses. I mean if not for the team name, Chief Runs with Cramps might not have felt so totally down trodden that he couldnt pass the college classes he never registered for in the first place.

OK yes I know my sarcasm gene is acting up this morning. But you get my general point. This is all about the money and end game is some one is likely going to sue Snyder and the team five minutes after the name is changed.

Good point. Too bad that the supposed leader of the Oneida nation can't spare some of his hundreds of millions of dollars for this purpose.