A.L. Central Discussion 2016

[navamind]

and Cowgill has a lot of defensive value.

 

[Iffster]

I am bewildered! After all that lecturing from miamivice (aka Ramon Santiago) about the total ineptitude of the Cleveland Indian offense....none of it stuck with you Tribe fans? You mean you are not considering Vice's touting of Uribe being as "old as fuck"? And what about Gomes being a total waste and a good bet to be injured? And his chuckling about signing Byrd did not affect you in any way?
As proven by his exact and accurate predictions about the Royals the past two years - Vice has proven himself a baseball expert of the highest level! How can he be ignored?????

 

[craigk217]

I am bewildered! After all that lecturing from miamivice (aka Ramon Santiago) about the total ineptitude of the Cleveland Indian offense....none of it stuck with you Tribe fans? You mean you are not considering Vice's touting of Uribe being as "old as fuck"? And what about Gomes being a total waste and a good bet to be injured? And his chuckling about signing Byrd did not affect you in any way?
As proven by his exact and accurate predictions about the Royals the past two years - Vice has proven himself a baseball expert of the highest level! How can he be ignored?????

He can be really "ignored", now big time, since he got his dumazz banned.

 

[Erie Warrior]

Bling

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Yea, so it could definitely be a lineup where there are no real holes, even if there's a lack of big time hitters...

Looking at the past 3 year numbers for the guys in their lineup:
Gomes - 106 OPS+
Napoli - 116 OPS+
Kipnis - 112 OPS+
Lindor - 122 OPS+
Uribe - 115 OPS+
Byrd - 116 OPS+
Davis - 99 OPS+
Santana - 119 OPS+
Brantley - 128 OPS+
Chisenhall - 96 OPS+

So virtually all of the main position players have been right around or above league average in recent years.

And just another exhibit of how sabemetrics tell a very small, if any story at all

Napoli. Uribe, Davis., Chisenhall, Byrd

These are not very good hitters, most of them once were, but yet sabemetrics say they are

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

And just another exhibit of how sabemetrics tell a very small, if any story at all

Napoli. Uribe, Davis., Chisenhall, Byrd

These are not very good hitters, most of them once were, but yet sabemetrics say they are

So, the recorded history of how these hitters have performed over the most recent three years is less accurate that your personal opinion of the hitters' abilities?

I'm not one that thinks SABERmetrics are the be all end all, but in this case, I'll take the numbers.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

So, the recorded history of how these hitters have performed is less accurate that your personal opinion of them?

id put more value in the fact that guys like Rajah Davis, Marlon Byrd and Juan Uribe really couldnt find a team all winter, until the late stages, more so than some obscure sabemetric measures

Each one of the guys mentioned is a nice complimentary player on any team (See Juan Uribe Mets 2015)....My issue would be if 4 or 5 of those guys are making up most of my everyday lineup

 

[navamind]

And just another exhibit of how sabemetrics tell a very small, if any story at all

Napoli. Uribe, Davis., Chisenhall, Byrd

These are not very good hitters, most of them once were, but yet sabemetrics say they are

Really? Considering a 100 OPS+ is considered average, they're saying Davis (whose OPS+ over that span is 99) is "very good"? Or Chisenhall and his 96 OPS+?

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Really? Considering a 100 OPS+ is considered average, they're saying Davis (whose OPS+ over that span is 99) is "very good"? Or Chisenhall and his 96 OPS+?

No one is saying they're "good," let alone "very good."

Dirt's just decided that the Indians have "hands down" the worst lineup in baseball be no one signed Rajah Davis or Marlon Byrd early in the off season.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

id put more value in the fact that guys like Rajah Davis, Marlon Byrd and Juan Uribe really couldnt find a team all winter, until the late stages, more so than some obscure sabemetric measures

I don't think I'd call OPS+ "obscure." Certainly OPS is not, and OPS+ is just a small step past that.

From an offensive standpoint, Napoli, Byrd and Uribe have actually been pretty good hitters over the last three years and relatively durable considering their ages over the last three years. Since you're not into OPS+, here's their games played/per season and slash lines over the last three.

MN - 130 GP - .245/.352/.440/.792
MB - 145 GP - .269/.313/.469/.782
JU - 118 GP - .281/.329/.432/.761

To put those slash lines into perspective, he're the MLB averages last year:

.254/.317/.405/.721

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Really? Considering a 100 OPS+ is considered average, they're saying Davis (whose OPS+ over that span is 99) is "very good"? Or Chisenhall and his 96 OPS+?

Oh I didnt even know that, I dont pay attention to that stuff, but I thought he was making the point they were good, so i countered

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

No one is saying they're "good," let alone "very good."

I don't think I'd call OPS+ "obscure." Certainly OPS is not, and OPS+ is just a small step past that.

From an offensive standpoint, Napoli, Byrd and Uribe have actually been pretty good hitters over the last three years and relatively durable considering their ages over the last three years. Since you're not into OPS+, here's their games played/per season and slash lines over the last three.

MN - 130 GP - .245/.352/.440/.792
MB - 145 GP - .269/.313/.469/.782
JU - 118 GP - .281/.329/.432/.761

To put those slash lines into perspective, he're the MLB averages last year:

.254/.317/.405/.721

Correction. I just said that, over the last three years, Napoli, Byrd and Uribe have been pretty good at hitting major league pitching.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Oh I didnt even know that, I dont pay attention to that stuff, but I thought he was making the point they were good, so i countered

Stan's point was that their are no massive black holes in the lineup.

That said, I fully agree with you that the Indians' lineup leaves quite a bit to be desired - particularly given the pitching staff they seem to have.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Stan's point was that their are no massive black holes in the lineup.

That said, I fully agree with you that the Indians' lineup leaves quite a bit to be desired - particularly given the pitching staff they seem to have.

We will re-visit this discussion at a later date

Lets just say I think Colin Cowghill, Rajah Davis, Marlon Byrd and Juan Uribe are pretty close to being black holes

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

We will re-visit this discussion at a later date

Lets just say I think Colin Cowghill, Rajah Davis, Marlon Byrd and Juan Uribe are pretty close to being black holes

Fair enough, and you could very well be right. With guys like Castro, Gregorius and Hicks on the team you follow, you would certainly know a black hole when you see one.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Fair enough, and you could very well be right. With guys like Castro, Gregorius and Hicks on the team you follow, you would certainly know a black hole when you see one.

Hicks is a 4th OF

Castro is a 25 year old 3 time All Star

Didi is a defensive specialist who isnt a complete black hole with the bat

 

[StanMarsh51]

id put more value in the fact that guys like Rajah Davis, Marlon Byrd and Juan Uribe really couldnt find a team all winter, until the late stages, more so than some obscure sabemetric measures

Each one of the guys mentioned is a nice complimentary player on any team (See Juan Uribe Mets 2015)....My issue would be if 4 or 5 of those guys are making up most of my everyday lineup

Or because all of them are all age 35+ and teams didn't want to commit to the number of years/dollars the players wanted?

And if you want to completely discredit Sabermetrics, what traditional stats say those 3 are 'bad' hitters compared to their position?

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Or because all of them are all age 35+ and teams didn't want to commit to the number of years/dollars the players wanted?

And if you want to completely discredit Sabermetrics, what traditional stats say those 3 are 'bad' hitters compared to their position?

Colin Cowghill batting .188 in 2015?

Mike Napoli, now batting cleanup, batting .224 with 18 HR and 50 RBI in 2015?

 

[Howie115]

K ROD sucks.

Nothing new. Decent relief pitchers put on a Tiger uniform and immediately become horseshit relief pitchers.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Colin Cowghill batting .188 in 2015?

Mike Napoli, now batting cleanup, batting .224 with 18 HR and 50 RBI in 2015?

I was specifically referring to the guys you believe were signed late simply because they were 'black holes '(Davis, Uribe, Byrd).

Cowgill as it's been stated, is really a backup and just there because Brantley is out.

Napoli for the 4 years preceding 2015 averaged around 25 HR, .370 OBP and .500 SLG. He wasn't good in 2015, but I don't think it's a large enough sample size to act like he's done given that track record.